Willing Compliance or Aversive Reflex - Page 21 - The Horse Forum
 1397Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #201 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,391
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
HONDO

You asked the question and had the answer all the time - well put.
If I did have the answer all the time, I only discovered in the course of this thread.

If asked, I can help with algebra lessons! :):)
loosie, gottatrot and Foxhunter like this.

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #202 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 10:24 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
So... what you seem to be saying is, maybe the assumption that 'NH' & 'positive training' generally produces 'spoiled' and never effectively trained animals is no more correct than assuming you're about being cruel by using 'pressure'.
No, you are missing what I am trying to say.
Good R+ training does not result in spoiling, nor does good R- result in pain or abuse.
Much of the argument here , has involved people trying to use extreme examples, taking tht R- to the max, using abusive techniques, that no one here , esp me, advocates or supports.
My point was merely that applying the same logic taking R+ to the max, and wrongly applied, would go in the extreme in that direction , and produce a spoiled horse, with neither being correct, far as the proper use of either R+ or R-. I have no intention of seeming to support R- used is the wrong manner, then you using R+ in the wrong way. That was my point
bsms and gottatrot like this.
Smilie is offline  
post #203 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 10:27 AM
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CT USA an English transplant
Posts: 32,828
• Horses: 3
Probably too much of my life was spent at UK horse auctions because I've seen an awful lot of cruelty being used in the name of 'teaching a horse to do as it's told'. It's everywhere though and on the increase based on the reports on read almost every week in one UK horse magazine
Occasionally I've had to use some form of quite hard punishment on a horse that was going to be dangerous unless very firmly corrected but on the whole unless you go out of your way to buy a very belligerent or challenging horse there isn't a lot of need to be using R- in your training.
How often do people resort to using it because they're the one's that have failed? A lot of the time a horse doesn't do something the way you want it to be done its the training method that's at fault - or the way it's been used, as in incorrectly or inappropriately. The handler/owner at some point didn't make the right thing easy, understandable or didn't have enough patience to do those things
loosie, bsms, gottatrot and 1 others like this.

Just winging it is not a plan
jaydee is offline  
post #204 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 10:34 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
What I have 'heard' here... not that anyone NEEDS to 'grab a clicker', but that it is valuable to learn, and that perhaps(not assuming automatically...) if you haven't learned the method fully, then you don't understand it well enough to have a strong opinion on it.

Strong opinions against c/t... or whatever, stated here, do indeed very often come across like trying to 'convert' people. Of course, to hold a strong belief means we'd naturally like others to hold it too. I think that's where we have to choose our words very carefully, in order to remain respectful and considerate of alternate opinions too.

And nowhere here have I 'heard' anyone at all argue against using a 'balance' of +R & -R in 'normal' training. On that note though, re the 'it can be better' comment, I took from what I read, that we weren't talking about 'balance' but about using -R without any significant +R - the 'release of pressure/pat/praise is adequate' type attitude. It does seem to be a very

common belief, and people commonly misunderstand what actual +R is & how it can create a different *attitude*. This is one subject I do have strong opinions about personally, of which I was trying to explain why it matters/is different to me.

Wrong , Loosie.\
Go back enough posts, esp near the beginning, and I mentioned many times in using the right balance of R+ and R- , and in the combo right for a particular horse, esp those with past history, where you need to at first use mainly R+, to help over come fear issues
Actually, much of this endless msi understanding, could have been prevented, by people actually going back and reading everything!
I certainly use a combo, which does not involve clicker training, per say, but I will give a random food reward, such as some beet pulp, after a horse is haltered and led back tot he barn, , or maybe a cookie, after a good ride
I also use scratch at the withers, simply letting a horse stand and rest, or getting off and putting th ehorse away, after a good effort
Perhaps you would condemn me less, actually reading all the posts,where I certainly over and over again, suggested to use the correct combo of R+ and R-!
Smilie is offline  
post #205 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kirkland, Arizona
Posts: 5,391
• Horses: 0
Using the right balance of R-/R+ means very little if anything to a person trying to learn. If it's the "right" balance, how could it be "wrong"?

But what does the right balance actually mean?

For myself, I think I have found the correct guide to the "right balance".

I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
Hondo is offline  
post #206 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:13 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Yeah, and, regardless of neurobiology, there's also the fact that so many people lack thinking & reasoning skills too...
Again, this post was in response to one of Reinins,and others, where horse learning was compared, to be the same as that of a dog or man, and not because I consider horses dumb brutes, and all people to be using their brain,
versus brute strength

Read Chris Irwin and he goes into why training a dog is different, based on the very nature of the two species, which you have to take into account, along with just pure learning pathways> In fact, the quote above, is incomplete, as you left out the other facets that influence the learning of a horse, such as his very herd/prey inborn instincts
Chris goes into the fact that the dog, like us , is a predator, that forms pacts to increase their efficiency in taking down prey, while horses form herds as a prey species for safety, and these factors alone, influence learning and behavioral curves, with horses indeed feeling secure in clear and fair leadership
My quote and reference was merely in response that all creatures learn the same, and while is is perhaps true at the very basic level, there are other influences, as in the very nature of that animal, prey or predator, and in the case of man, brain structure itself-okay?
Smilie is offline  
post #207 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:20 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,855
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
...And on the 'other side' I also see(here & in 'real life') SO many people with a strong attitude against using actual +R, due either to lack of understanding what it is('the only reward a horse(or dog) needs is release of pressure & a Good Boy'...)...But perhaps this is because I come from a 'combo approach' kind of attitude, that I'd feel 'set upon' if I didn't use +R, I don't know...
I think a huge number of horse owners use R+ without calling it that or thinking about it. On the ranch Trooper came from, he was used for sheep instead of cattle - because he seemed to enjoy being around the sheep. His sire was a somewhat dangerous stallion until my friend realized there were two things the stallion liked - going for 50+ mile rides, and working very rough cattle. So he started using the stallion for those sorts of work, and the stallion realized humans enabled him to do things he liked. He eventually became my friends favorite horse, and eventually was used by their teens - but not until the stallion understood working WITH people allowed him to do things he enjoyed.

Cowboy was given to us free because no one at the place where he was a lesson horse wanted him. He had been up for free for several months with no takers. He was a pretty bitter, arena-sour lesson horse. But we eventually found he LOVES going out on trails with the other horses - if he is ridden by a rider who lets him make some of the decisions. We now consider him to be our best trail horse, and in many ways simply our best horse. My wife only recently started riding, and she is learning to ride by riding Cowboy in the desert. If he gets left behind, like he was yesterday...oh boy! He got more exercise racing around the corral and kicking and jumping than he would have going out with us. His hooves are harder than the rocks, and he views the desert as a giant, all-you-can-eat buffet, spread out before him! My wife will sometimes steer him to a spot with something he likes to eat, just so he can grab a bite. In return, when she needs him to do something physically hard - he does it. With enthusiasm! They are a team, riding together.

I don't think many eager horses are created by trying to limit oneself to R+. And most owners don't even think about it. But a lot of owners DO try to find a horse who enjoys the sort of riding the owner enjoys.

When I started handling Bandit's stronger fears by taking him a little way away, then dismounting and showing him, slowly, that the scary thing wasn't scary, I was told he would soon learn to take advantage of me - that horses don't like to be ridden and by dismounting I was "rewarding him". It didn't work that way. Heck, I dismount and walk about once an hour anyway - but Bandit shows no sign that he doesn't want to be ridden. He dislikes being afraid and he dislikes parts of trails that hurt his feet. Can't blame him for either!

Apart from that, he enjoys getting out. In his mind, at least, he is in charge of the herd. He is guiding them, with help from me, through the desert. The grass in our little arena is an immediate reward, and he'd prefer immediate gratification. But once out, he enjoys being in charge...so once we're 1/4 mile or more out, he's happy enough.

I realize it is also common for horse owners to say their horses' desires are irrelevant. It is common, including on this forum, to see "My horse has 23 hours a day to stand and eat. So for MY hour, he can make me happy. IT'S HIS JOB!" No amount of R+ initial training will survive being ridden regularly by someone who believes the horse's JOB is to make the rider happy - at anything the rider wants to do, anytime the rider feels like doing it.

Horse sense used to be a synonym for common sense. If someone had "horse sense", you might fool them for a while, but they would eventually see the truth of the matter. I don't think horses have changed. My horses can see through me, given time. If I want them to enjoy being with me, they eventually respond. Even Trooper, who doesn't like me much, likes me a lot better if I ride him regularly. And if someone believes their horse's job is to make them happy, then horses will figure that out as well. In that situation, R- might be the rider's only option to compel obedience from a horse who would much rather be somewhere else.

For most horses, I don't think R+/R- for teaching cues matters a whole lot. What matters is what happens AFTER the horse learns the cues. Does the rider treat the horse with respect? Do they include "Please" and "Thank you" in their cues? Are they willing to make compromises with their horse? Do they genuinely care about their horse's welfare? Heck, do they even know their horse has a mind and is capable of thought? Are they teachers or trainers? Do they ride the horse's mind, or just sit on top of his body?

In the long run, I think those questions have more to do with a positive approach to horses than how we teach them what a cue means.
loosie likes this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
post #208 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:22 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Using the right balance of R-/R+ means very little if anything to a person trying to learn. If it's the "right" balance, how could it be "wrong"?

But what does the right balance actually mean?

For myself, I think I have found the correct guide to the "right balance".
So, use it. Did I not tell you, that with Hondo;s past history, and you gaining his trust, that you are using what is right for him?
Smilie is offline  
post #209 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:27 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 11,855
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
...How often do people resort to using it because they're the one's that have failed? A lot of the time a horse doesn't do something the way you want it to be done its the training method that's at fault - or the way it's been used...
"In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural, the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit." James Fillis, 1890.

There certainly IS a lot of "blame the horse first" going on! Lots of riders ought to be tossed off their horses and given motorcycles or ATVs - something with neither feelings nor thought! It was one of the reasons I stopped taking group riding lessons. It was painful to see horses being ridden by people who didn't seem to know the horses were alive.

@Smilie : Chris Irwin used to have a ton of free videos on Statelinetack. I watched him and listened to his explanations during my first months of owning a horse, and he was a HUGE help! I'd have been lost without his video teachings.
loosie, jaydee and Dustbunny like this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
bsms is offline  
post #210 of 765 Old 10-10-2016, 11:33 AM
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Olds Alberta Canada
Posts: 12,041
• Horses: 0
I should get off this topic, but , sigh, feel I need to give an example of how the physical brain difference of a horse from a man, can affect behavior and ultimately the learning process.
A horse, doe snot stick his leg through a barb wire fence, and then reason like a human, should he pull back, he is going to tear up his leg. Instead, he reacts instinctively, as a flight animal
We, can however, help him to over come that instinctive reaction, by teaching him to accept leg restraint, so it becomes a learned behavior, even when he sticks that leg into a fence
A horse also does not reason, gee, last time I ate that lush grass/grain, whatever, I got laminitis, so will refrain. Thus, it becomes our responsibility to keep that horse safe from founder
Willing compliance, for me, is a learned behavior using the right combo of R+ and R-, so that it becomes an ingrained reaction for a horse, creating a good and willing good work ethics
Compliance implies that you first ask a horse to do something, with the horse then complying,hopefully in a willing and happy manner, built on trust, repetition, fairness
The cue can be just a voice cue, a look or a soft aid.Horses do learn to willingly move their hips over, with you simply looking at that hip, while saying over
bsms likes this.
Smilie is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Compositi Reflex wide track stirrups hoovesandpaws Saddle Fitting Issues 5 05-10-2014 07:59 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome