Bandit, Cowboy & bsms...muddling through together - Page 188 - The Horse Forum
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post #1871 of 1970 Old 05-26-2019, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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I agree things vary. There is a guy in church who is a little older than me. He's never been on or needed a diet in his life. He's obviously not a candidate for fasting.

The one article I linked to discussed some people with a gene that causes fat stored in the cells to tend to STAY in the cells. These people can be quite fat and yet have no heart problems, at least not blood based heart problems. That could explain some of my aunts and uncles, who got fat but didn't have heart attacks or strokes. And who found it very hard to lose fat. My Mom stayed healthy, in terms of being able to be active and clear thinking, while walking 4 miles every morning. About 80, the metal pins in her ankle for a car accident 60 years earlier came out. Essentially, her ankle disintegrated while she was out on a walk. A neighbor saw her, took her to the hospital, but she had to give up her morning walks and her health went over the cliff.

But just like many horse trainers have a one size fits all approach to horses, the US government and American Heart Association and others have pushed a simplistic solution on everyone for 50 years. Here is what the AHA says:

Quote:
Itís not as hard as you may think[]...Make the simple steps below part of your life for long-term benefits to your health and your heart.

Use up at least as many calories as you take in.

...You may need fewer or more calories depending on several factors including age, gender, and level of physical activity.

If you are trying not to gain weight, donít eat more calories than you know you can burn up every day.

Increase the amount and intensity of your physical activity to burn more calories...

...Limit saturated fat, trans fat, sodium, red meat, sweets and sugar-sweetened beverages. If you choose to eat red meat, compare labels and select the leanest cuts available....

...Eat a variety of fresh, frozen and canned vegetables and fruits without high-calorie sauces or added salt and sugars. Replace high-calorie foods with fruits and vegetables. Choose fiber-rich whole grains for most grain servings...If you choose to eat meat, look for the leanest cuts available....Select fat-free (skim) and low-fat (1%) dairy products."

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-liv...ecommendations
See? It is SIMPLE! No excuses! All it takes is a little willpower and avoiding any trace of fat in your diet!

My Mom periodically went on 600-800 calorie a day diets. I guess that might be a form of intermittent fasting. It certainly indicates she had will power! Meanwhile, one of my uncles ate lard and was lean as a rail. I'm sure being a farmer had something to do with it! But another uncle who was a farmer avoided fatty foods and gained weight. And like so many experts, dieticians look at that and don't see anything that makes them go "Hmmmmmm..."

I've lost weight on low fat diets. I lose it easier on high fat diets. Sorry, AHA! The studies I've seen indicate cheese can be positively GOOD for you when eaten moderately. I don't know if the diet I'm on now will work over the long haul. But FOR ME, it is the easiest diet I've tried. And for now, I'm losing weight and my pants are getting looser. And according to the American Heart Association, I'm doing it wrong!

Oh well.

It is like when I was told all I needed to do to make Mia totally confident was get a bigger whip. Or to sing when I felt nervous. Or that my horse should push through brush and drop into a wash without any hesitation because he feels such total confidence in me! And I now know enough to say folks giving me that advice had never met a horse like Mia or like Bandit. Darn it, I love Bandit's self-possession!

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post #1872 of 1970 Old 05-26-2019, 08:34 PM
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That's a lovely picture!

The low-fat thing is now generally becoming viewed as having failed. I never took it up - I've always done full-fat dairy, olive oil, canola oil for the odd bit of high-temperature cooking, lots of different nuts (and my cholesterol profile is really good - lots of protective, below-average "bad"). I don't like eating fatty meat - I just have a bleh response to that - so go for leaner cuts, or kangaroo, which is really lean. It's a serious problem that farm animals are getting fattened before slaughter - it's not good for the animals or for the people who eat them, and it's terribly wasteful of the resources that go into putting the excess fat on the animals. Also, there's the issue that pesticides etc are bioamplified into body fats - I imagine that's more of a problem with eating fatty meat than fatty dairy, because the dairy cows are cranking out the dairy fat continuously, so will cause comparative dilution (but still a source).

Atkins etc critiqued that whole "avoid fat" thing, and while I agree with some of his points, I think he's too extreme. I don't think food should be a religion, or a PhD, it should simply be choosing sensibly from healthy ingredients, and avoiding processed foods. And that's pretty much all we do here - eat like people on the land with their own F&V gardens did for centuries - our own garden produce, plus lean-ish meat and fish, a fair amount of free-range eggs, legumes, wholegrain flour etc (which is still carbohydrate, so I still cut back on it when I'm writing for a day rather than planting trees). But with food, I'm looking for nutrition - for vitamins, antioxidants, minerals, essential fatty acids, essential amino acids, etc etc - rather than avoiding foods for being calorie dense. Nuts are calorie dense, but also nutrient dense and good for you, and I get a whole lot of satiety from having a platter with a few bit of cheese, a handful of walnuts, a sliced apple and maybe a cracker or two (depending on activity levels) for morning tea. I wouldn't have the same satiety from ten donuts (believe me, I've tried, as a young person ), but would have quadruple the calories with less than 5% of the nutrition that way...

I'm finding that putting the things you're going to eat on a plate is much better than, say, sitting down with a packet of nuts, because you can unwittingly eat half the packet when you don't really need it.

Basically, my weight management is keeping the fat off, and arguing with about 3-5kg of fat that I don't really need to have - an argument that is best addressed for me by getting on my bicycle or walking in the mountains.

The most fat I ever put on in a short time was around 5-6 kg in three months when I was working in London in my mid-20s. The share house kitchen was shockingly unhygienic and stacked with dishes that literally had rotting food on them, and there was no way I was going to change the habits of the other three girls I was sharing with. So, I decided the toaster was the one safe thing to use in that kitchen, and I lived mostly off toasted wholemeal pita bread with hummous, and Sainsbury's Strawberry Trifles, and fresh fruit, plus raw vegies like carrots, capsicum, tomatoes, celery cut into easy-eat shapes, and Ryvita with avocado and tinned tuna. My big weaknesses were McVites Chocolate Digestive biscuits (wholemeal, but still), and fresh strawberry donuts (English donuts aren't excessively sugary, and have real jam inside, made with actual fruit and not overly sugary) - and I was cold a lot, and eating to stay warm.

When I got back to Australia, it took me three months of running on the beach to shed those five kilograms. If I'd stayed there a year, I probably would have come back with 20kg extra...

SueC is time travelling.
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post #1873 of 1970 Old 05-26-2019, 09:18 PM
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I was heavy once myself, but it was when I got pregnant with my first and following that. People were so rude! I got told I looked like a sheep tick and also when I was four months pregnant that I should be due any day. Lol. ďOh, it must be twins!Ē was a common response to my look. ;)

I wasnít used to being heavy, so I guess I didnít put any stock into it. Pregnant means you gain weight, what did they know right? Well, I made eight months pregnant on the dot when I had my oldest, and I had gained 90 pounds. All the sudden I had a complex. ďOkay, I had the baby, why am I not skinny again?Ē So I was weird about it for a couple months; I took my measurements and I ran.

Then I got pregnant with baby #2, and I was really sick. I made it to about a week before eight months when I had her. I weighed less than when I got pregnant walking out of the hospital. The nurse scolded me, ďIt is important to gain weight when you are pregnant, and itís not natural to wear your jeans out. Didnít you worry about the health of your baby?Ē

I donít handle criticism too well, making myself small, and I meekly explained that I had been terribly sick, throwing up blood every day and at the doctorís often. ďOh, I guess that can explain it,Ē she walked away.

Either way it can be difficult, being heavy or being thin. I was teased all throughout school that I was bulimic and ugly, and why not eat a hamburger. They never noticed I ate more than any of them, and so I started to wear too big of clothes to try and look heavier.

It is odd the complexes we give each other. Dieting seems to create more of them. I read what bsms writes, and how he must justify that he does indeed have willpower. Is that the message that is sent into the world? I donít understand why we are blind to the fact that we are supposed to all be different.

My mother eats nothing but junk. I am not kidding either. Sugar is her mainstay. She is healthy and good looking, and I have no idea how that works. If I eat sugar I get migraines bad and start losing weight. I can simply look at my family and see different people need different things. I am pretty sure anyone can see that if they look around themselves.
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post #1874 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 03:17 AM
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It's horrible how people are nasty to other people about appearances etc - "too fat", "too thin", "big nose", "slit eyes" etc etc. As if it's anybody's business what another person looks like. Shaming over appearance seemed to be an international pastime when I was growing up - I saw it in Europe, and I saw it in Australia. Of course, broadly, bullies bully about any type of being different, because they feel better about themselves when they can denigrate someone else.

I'm sorry people were so thoughtless, @Knave , and @bsms - and probably also @gottatrot , did you get rude comments about being skinny? I did! "Oh, do you have worms? Are you anorexic? Do you throw up in the toilets?" I can only imagine how that would feel if you do actually have an eating disorder.

I'm going to look at genetics and lifestyle for weight in our family, but also at appearance shaming. My mother was overweight from her late 30s onwards, and increasingly so with age, and was fat shamed terribly by my (skinny) father, who encouraged my brother and me to join him in fat shaming my mother. He encouraged us to see her as a moral and personal failure, and always made rude comments about her when she was eating - which would have increased her psychological drivers to overeat. He used words like "fat pig" and "fat cow" and "elephant" and also, in German there are two words for eating: Essen is humans eating, fressen is animals eating. If you apply fressen to a human, that's really insulting, the same way it would be if someone said, "Oh, have you just had a shiitake?" if they come back from the toilet. So, my father was frequently using the animal term for my mother eating, and offering to buy her a trough.

I wasn't comfortable with all the abuse in our family; as the youngest, I was the least able to defend myself too. But, my mother was constantly appearance shaming me as well - "Your face looks like a cheese! (she thought I should get a tan) Your hair is like spaghetti! You're slouching! You're a stick! The wind will blow you away! You have monkey arms! You're flat chested! You're a late developer! (when I was 12, 13)" ...she said all of these things, and often, and that was just appearance - she had other terms of insult for my character etc: "You're lazy! You're ungrateful! You're young and stupid! (my father liked using that one too) You're a snot-nose!" ...all thrown with lots of acid. Terms like "stupid cow" and "[email protected]" and "dog" and "b1tch" and "a-hole" were routine everyday terms my parents used on each other and on me. And then there was all the hitting, and kicking, and throwing things, and Chinese burns, and the threatening and the intimidating, and bruises and blood noses, and people fighting with the wood heater poker or other tools or fists, and my mother split a wooden cutting board over my head once, and chased me with broomsticks and kicked my shins blue if she could corner me etc.

So with all of that, as a primary school kid, it sometimes gave me a grim satisfaction to see the discomfort of the people who were hurting me on a regular basis, and sometimes, if I got insulted by my mother, I'd insult her back with the fat-shaming my father was teaching us - and of course, I'd get hit for doing so. Later on, as a teenager, I thought about ethics and what sort of person I wanted to be, and stopped doing that.

I think a lot of this rubbish starts in families, in dysfunctional patterns. You don't necessarily see it looking from the outside - a lot of very dysfunctional families are respected pillars of the community. Mine were, for a long time. A charade gets played in public; it helps if the family has money and social status - as mine did - because then people won't look at them as ungenerously as they do poor people. It doesn't help that people let themselves be impressed by status.

So anyway - in my family of origin, my mother had overweight issues from her 30s and obesity issues from her 40s - and almost certainly linked to depression and other forms of mental/emotional illness. She wasn't a warm, loving mother to me (but wanted to be seen as such), but I think she didn't have any genuine warmth and love in her marriage either - and that cut both ways: They were very good at making life hell for each other, and for me too.

My brother had overweight issues from his 30s, increasing with age. It's hard to say how much is genetics and how much lifestyle, but he didn't exercise and he ate junk, and too much of it, thought vegetables were for rabbits, and also got quite an alcohol habit. My father was relatively lean most of his life, except for a "lifesaver" ring around his waist in his late 30s, which he addressed by eating less and taking up tennis and cross-country skiing. From his 40s, he worked with horses and got plenty of heavy exercise mucking out stables, feeding a dozen or more dry lot / stable horses four times a day, training them, and repairing all the fences etc.

My mother's take is that she's got the fat genes (her mother was the same), as does my brother, but that my father has thin genes and passed them onto me. I don't think it's that simple, because in that group of people, all the people who ended up overweight hated exercise and overate on junk foods, and the two people who didn't are highly physically active. Unless we're going to stipulate that an exercise-loathing gene exists... I do know that if I had my mother's or my brother's lifestyle and diet and level of non-exercise, there is no way I would be a healthy person, and I'd certainly have stacked on weight - you can see that it's possible for me just from what happened in England.

I think it's a combination of genes and environment (lifestyle, mental/emotional health etc). It's certainly true that there are "good doers" and "hard keepers" in humans as well as horses, for mainly genetic reasons, I would guess. And fat shaming helps nobody, besides being atrocious manners and indicative of a nasty personality...

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post #1875 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SueC View Post
I'm sorry people were so thoughtless, @Knave , and @bsms - and probably also @gottatrot , did you get rude comments about being skinny? I did! "Oh, do you have worms? Are you anorexic? Do you throw up in the toilets?" I can only imagine how that would feel if you do actually have an eating disorder.
Yes, but it was bad because those comments are affirming to an anorexic. Someone actually thought you looked thin? When you know you are actually quite fat? It's a state of dichotomy because half of you thinks that perhaps you are thin, since people say you are. The other half measures the fat ripples around the belly button or behind the arm and thinks there is still more to lose.

People can be extremely rude. The rudest thing I ever heard was when I was a teen, and my mom was pregnant with my little brother at age 40. A stranger told her in the grocery store that her baby would have Down Syndrome because she was so old.

What I had to learn was that it was up to me to feel good about myself, no matter what others thought. And that health is far more important than appearance. Someone told me I had a big nose as a child, after I'd broken it. After that it felt like my nose was enormous, and it bothered me well into adulthood. What cured me was when I broke it again, and after the doctor straightened it I realized how lucky I was to have a straight nose at all! I'm still learning this, but trying to think of myself as a unique and wonderful creation, just like all the horses. We wouldn't want them all to have the exact same nose, or eyes, and we think some of them are cuter when chunky, and some look elegant and lean. My dog has developed a little pot belly now that he has hypothyroidism, and I think it's adorable. Amore has one too.
We're all just creatures after all. You all look like beautiful creatures to me, so unique and special. Some of us are quarter horses, some thoroughbreds, and some ponies. Some are even draft horses. It's much better that way.
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post #1876 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 04:59 AM
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@gottatrot , I wish to present you with today's "Sublime post" prize!
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post #1877 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Fat shaming. I guess I would distinguish between fat SHAMING and fat WARNING. I suspect y'all have noticed I strongly dislike the "Your weight proves you are a morally bad person" approach, which is fat shaming. "He used words like "fat pig" and "fat cow" and "elephant" - @SueC That is fat shaming. My family never took things to that extreme, but I was a very fat kid whose Mom put 3 chocolate chip cookies in every lunch and whose Dad made it clear my weight embarrassed him.

After all, as the American Heart Association says, "Itís not as hard as you may think...Make the simple steps below part of your life for long-term benefits to your health and your heart." So...if it isn't in some way "hard", then why do so many of us struggle?

I'm a life long jogger. Not a runner. One thing I really like about runners is that I've never heard an elite runner criticize a jogger, or say, "Running a 5 minute mile is EASY. Just make a few simple changes..." The very good runners I've met have all been encouragers, not condemners. That is why I get pissed off when someone says, "It's just calories in, calories out. Nothing some will-power won't solve!" I've had doctors tell me that. And it is how I view the AHA, whose eating recommendations, IMHO, have caused far more obesity than they have solved.

BTW - talked to my sister yesterday. She said she has struggled with weight too. Like me, she finds it easier to lose or control weight with a high fat diet than a low fat one. She also said her standard breakfast for the last 20 years has included 2 eggs. At least a dozen eggs a week and her blood work is fine. NOT for everyone, but eggs are fine for SOME.

So...fat SHAMING is disgusting.

But in America, "fat shaming" is now starting to mean, "I can be as fat as I want and you should PRAISE me for it!" To the extent of rejecting any idea of medical consequences. "Is it my fatness that causes my high blood pressureóor is it my experience of weight stigma?...I come from an exclusively pro-body and anti-diet perspective. This means I will never use food moralism to tell you to replace foods you love with foods you hate. I will never use intentional weight loss as a therapeutic goal. I will never collude with fatphobia in our therapeutic work....I truly believe that a child cannot consent to being on a diet the same way a child cannot consent to having sex...Ē

https://quillette.com/2019/04/26/the...at-acceptance/

My wife is visiting my son. He is 6 inches shorter than I am and maybe 40 lbs heavier. She spent yesterday taking his kids all around an aquarium while he sat on a bench. He has knee pain and back pain. But he also rejects any suggestion to diet. "If I die at 50, I'll die happy at 50!" As a parent, it is painful to watch. In high school, he ran cross country - slowly, because he is 5'2". But it was a small high school and they needed an extra person on the team. Less than 20 years later, he can't walk around an aquarium with his kids.

Humans always take things to extremes. In horse shows. Dog shows. I understand why the Greeks talked about balance. Humans seem to seek the unbalanced. Fat SHAMING really pisses me off. But when you see your child unable to walk around with your grandkids...

A doctor once told my uncle he needed to lose weight. My uncle replied, "I go dancing 3 times a week with friends, and I'm 85. You should be as lucky!" If you are fit enough to enjoy life, you are fit enough. If you would really like to be able to run 5 miles again - and I would - then diet may play a part in it. But the diet needs to work for the individual. I'm pretty happy right now with what I'm doing, but my sister said she's a grazer and plans to stay that way. And yes, THAT works well for her.

PS: At 90, my uncle had his leg shattered in an accident. They told him he'd never walk again. A week later, he died in his hospital bed. The family all believes the dance club was what made his life worth living. No good medical reason why he died, apart from just not wanting to live. Good man, though, and a good run at life!

PSS: Worth a repeat:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
...We're all just creatures after all. You all look like beautiful creatures to me, so unique and special. Some of us are quarter horses, some thoroughbreds, and some ponies. Some are even draft horses. It's much better that way.
PSSS: The trainer that worked with Mia told me one of the things horses taught her was to love them for what they were, not for what they could never be. Maybe more people need to hang out with horses.

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post #1878 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 12:12 PM
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I get what you are saying. That is what I meant, that we shouldnít shame anyone.

My husband is beautiful. He is big and strong, and one of those guys that you know could beat someone up. A boxer type I guess. His grandpa was a golden gloves boxer, and he carries that. However, he tends to gain a little weight around his belly, just like most middle aged men.

I do insanity, and I convinced him to do a round with me. He really was fitting up, but he hated insanity. He swore he would never do it again. I try and convince him to work out with me. Itís not because I donít think he is beautiful. It is because his father died a few years back of a heart attack. He never got to be at his youngestís wedding or meet his younger grandchildren. He left behind a hole. He wasnít heavy at all. He was very attractive, like the old cowboys on the movies. He did have a bum hip though, causing him to be less active than he would have been.

His father also died young of a heart attack. On his motherís side, the golden gloves boxer died of a heart attack. He was older, but obviously this runs in my husbandís genetics heavily. So, I pressure him occasionally to work out. He laughs at me and refuses.

So, I get a healthy encouragement for fitness. It would break my heart to see one of my children unable to enjoy an aquarium visit.
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post #1879 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 08:17 PM
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But in America, "fat shaming" is now starting to mean, "I can be as fat as I want and you should PRAISE me for it!" To the extent of rejecting any idea of medical consequences.
Yes, and it makes me sad that many people don't know what it's like to be fit (regardless of size), and have a diminished quality of life because they are so obese.

As you say, it's the balance. In between the point where your weight is interfering with normal function and causing pain and unhealthiness, and being at an ideal weight, there is a wide range where you can be active and healthy.

My sister outweighs me by about thirty pounds (we are the same height). However, she is still very healthy, she eats a better diet than I do and is a very serious runner. She does a few half marathons each year, and we run the same pace. Supposedly my BMI is healthy and hers is a bit high. She carries a lot of muscle, and her extra weight does not affect her in any way except for her insecurity about her appearance. Some people see me as too thin. I feel very good and healthy. When I was in Japan, I was fairly average there.
My sister and I basically have the same body, but we wear it differently (I am a year older). Yet I think we're both in the range of healthiness.


In my mind there is a big difference between thinking of your weight and appearance as your worth, versus thinking of it as your health. If your hair is falling out abnormally, it's more important to think about why and take care of your health than it is to think about your appearance. It is the same with weight.
I agree with @Knave , more important than encouraging someone to lose weight, is encouraging someone to get active and fit!
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post #1880 of 1970 Old 05-27-2019, 09:52 PM
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Horses are expensive, even though I only have one, and he is in my back yard, here in So Cal it costs a fortune to keep a horse in hay all year. But this is money well spent for me, every morning I get up and go out in my back yard and shovel horse ####. Some women my age turn into puddings. I credit my horse addiction to helping to keep me healthy, and every penny well spent.
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