Bandit, Cowboy & bsms...muddling through together - Page 48 - The Horse Forum
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post #471 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
And @Hondo made a comment about humans feeling confident about ponying a horse that I think sums up some of Ray Hunt's teaching very clearly and concisely (not a direct quote, but something like this):

'If doing X makes you tense, maybe try doing less than X?'
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Originally Posted by Reiningcatsanddogs View Post
I also agree with Hondo's do less of X, pearl of wisdom.
I can't allow that "pearl of wisdom" to be attributed to me. That would be more than a little white lie! :)

That concept is taught both casually, in DVD's, and on site instruction in a sport I was once involved it. If you're scared to do X, well don't. Dox.

When that feels safe and comfortable, do a little more. Pretty soon you'll be doingX in total control and with total safety, well, almost.

There, glad to get that undeserved accolade off my chest. But thanks for the thought.

I thought I was getting in tune with Hondo a bit but RCD makes me feel like a first grader. And that's a good thing.
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post #472 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 03:04 PM
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Hondo, I don’t mean to make you or anyone else feel like a first grader! My sincere apologies for doing so.

I just have always had a bit of a philosophical streak in me….I think about “things” deeply, even when I am doing something else. Maybe my father’s tactic of sending me to my room to think about what I did wrong when I misbehaved worked a bit too well? (I spent a lot of time there) :0

Sorry, I really don't mean to come off high and mighty. It really is meant to just get y'all thinking your own thoughts and weaving your own philosophies out of your own experiences.
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post #473 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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^^ You don't come off as arrogant. You come off as someone to inspire those of us with less saddle time to experiment and try for riding a horse with understanding instead of an iron fist.

Heck, it was pretty exciting to me to see that Ray Hunt - a very respected trainer - taught stuff that I've been learning from Mia, Bandit and the folks on HF. There are certainly a lot of folks who poo-poo the idea, so its nice to hear success stories - and stories about learning along the way!

Also, I found the skating analogy very helpful. It really is like hearing the horse's side of riding...

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #474 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
^^ You don't come off as arrogant. You come off as someone to inspire those of us with less saddle time to experiment and try for riding a horse with understanding instead of an iron fist.

Heck, it was pretty exciting to me to see that Ray Hunt - a very respected trainer - taught stuff that I've been learning from Mia, Bandit and the folks on HF. There are certainly a lot of folks who poo-poo the idea, so its nice to hear success stories - and stories about learning along the way!

Also, I found the skating analogy very helpful. It really is like hearing the horse's side of riding...
Thank-you for that. My husband tells me that sometimes I come off the wrong way so I try to be aware of it.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


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post #475 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 04:03 PM
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@Reiningcatsanddogs

Oh Me! I'm afraid I am the one that doesn't say things right, not you.

Notice I said, "And that's a good thing!".

That was just my way of recognizing and appreciating the very high level of experience and knowledge you have. I mean it.

I came in from my puttering around outside to post and idea you inspired.

There needs to be a book, or a DVD series, or even better, a TV series entitled:

DANCING WITH HORSES

If a TV series, the program could show gradual progress over a long period of time. If a year or two was taken to produce a DVD set, the same could be shown. That would be much more meaningful than what could be done in one training session.

And the concept of Dancing With Horses could embrace the teachings of Dorrance, Hunt, Rashid, and all of those things that we like ( and that the horses like). Dancing with horses describes very much the quest I have been and am on.

I don't have a TV but for that I'd get one!

Edit: To me, Dancing With Horses is a step beyond the concept of horse whispering. In many ways, I think, it really is a dance.
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The Mustang has no place in modern society. The Mustang belongs on the range or in a supportive forever home. Me too.
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post #476 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 04:16 PM
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Thank-you Hondo.

You might be interested to know that there is actually a book, I have not read it so I can't speak to its value, Dancing with Horses: Communication with Body Language by Klaus Hempfling. He was actually a professional dancer at one time a lot of his things you can find for free on line are highly over produced and have that "artistic flare" that Europeans seem to appreciate more than we Americans, but a lot of what he does is solid. I have one of his other books though and found it useful.
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Last edited by Reiningcatsanddogs; 09-24-2016 at 04:21 PM.
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post #477 of 2062 Old 09-24-2016, 04:36 PM
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I found two video relating to this you might find interesting. At least these are not so artsy-fartsy as a lot of his other ones!

The Interaction Between Man and Horse - AOL On

How to Behave with Horses - AOL On

Oh dang, I forgot you have limited viewing power right now. I leave them here for you and you can come back and watch them when you get the opportunity.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


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post #478 of 2062 Old 09-26-2016, 11:03 AM
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[MENTIONReiningcatsanddogs] Thanks for the video links. I watched 2.5 of them. I'll have to wait until I get back to Windows 7 for the rest. Pretty amazing stuff!

The Mustang has no place in modern society. The Mustang belongs on the range or in a supportive forever home. Me too.
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post #479 of 2062 Old 09-26-2016, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Just received a book by Tom Dorrance. I doubt I'd recommend it. It costs quite a bit for a slender volume, and I don't think it is written very clearly. However, I'll post a couple of quotes:

Tom Dorrance "True Unity"

"Many people don't realize how easy it is to destroy this confidence the horse has built up in the human - the closeness between the horse and the person. If the person will allow the horse to use this confidence and closeness, it will be strong in the horse. But the person generally doesn't realize what the horse is trying to apply - what it's really wanting the person to grasp. That is very seldom recognized by the person, but the horse is chuck full of it...We are searching for, and trying to find, some way to get this into print, so people will be able to out it to use for the benefit of themselves and their horses. It has to be a togetherness...Without that understanding we might just as well throw the whole thing in the creek." - page 11

"Some people feel the rider makes a mistake when the pressure isn't released AFTER the horse comes through. It is released when the horse is going to yield - that is the time when you ease the pressure, BEFORE it happens. IF YOU SEE THAT IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, I'd say you withdraw your pressure BEFORE it happens, because if he is starting to do it, and the pressure is still there, it's in the way of the horse. He is trying to use his own mind and body to do this, and if the person won't allow that to happen, he interferes with the process."
- page 20

I've just started skimming thru the book, and I may be taking this wrong. It is easy to read one's preconceived ideas into something.

But it seems to me he is talking about what I've called 'The Power of We' - that seemingly innate desire of the horse to be part of a team, and the way we humans can offer them a form of teamwork that other horses rarely do.

It seems to me if you set boundaries, and tell the horse there are certain things you cannot tolerate, and then give him freedom and real choices within those boundaries, you allow the horse to come to you. By genuinely making the horse a part of the team, you give him something the horse craves - but in return, you have to listen to him and honor choices made within your boundaries.

"Some people will ride a horse as long as the horse lives and they will never get what I try to get just as early as I can, for a foundation. I don't mean that I'm trying to get everything completed, but to get enough there to where if the horse gets troubled he will come to me; or to where I can get him to come to me for security and cover. Without that foundation I feel very insecure on a horse...

...The best thing I try to do for myself is try to listen to the horse. I don't mean to let him take over. I listen to how he is operating; what he's understanding or what he doesn't understand; what's bothering him and what isn't bothering him...

...Usually, the horse is supposed to do everything the rider decides to do. I LIKE TO WORK FROM WHERE THE HORSE IS, TO GET HIM TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE WHEREVER AND WHENEVER I NEED HIM
." - page 13

I have come to feel very insecure on a horse who won't talk to me. If they won't talk to me, then they can end up feeling trapped. Then they explode. But my daughter is right, "Horses are very practical creatures. The reason more horses don't talk is that so few people listen - and horses see no value wasting time talking to someone who refuses to listen."

That doesn't mean you let the horse take over, but you do allow him to seek a compromise that works for you both, so you both can then act as a team. From what I've seen so far, and I'm experimenting with it...if you make a suggestion (not command), and the horse accepts it and takes responsibility for performing it, then you HAVE removed the pressure before the horse has acted. You DO get out of the way, and the horse performs because you and the horse are a team, and the horse wants his team to win!

Anyways...it is another slender volume, and I can already see how many would get frustrated reading it. I already have in spots. He jumps around and switches gears a lot. OTOH, he may be discussing what I'm trying to learn. But not entirely, certainly! I've read some pages where I have no clue at all what he is saying or why. It is entirely possible he is often writing about things beyond me, so I can understand the part my horses have taught me, but not the stuff we haven't ever gotten to...yet.

But like Ray Hunt's small book, it seems to be very much about the mutual teaching that should go on between horse and rider - and can go on when the rider listens to the horse. It is pretty obvious to me that horses listen to us FAR better than we listen to them!

---------------------------------

BTW - winds are 30 gust to 45. I've no desire at all to ride today!

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #480 of 2062 Old 09-26-2016, 06:27 PM
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The way I have used Dorrances book is to take what I can from it each time I read it. You won’t understand some of it at first but, you understand some and try to apply it.

Then a while later you are working with a horse and a lightbulb goes off about an explanation that stuck in your head and you wondered at the time what he meant by that….now you get it! Curious, you go back and re-read.

Once again, you get a few more concepts on the 2nd round that you didn’t understand the first time but there are still others that are puzzling. You go out and work with the horses some more and months go by and it happens again, now you understand what was once perplexing. You head back to the book again.

It just keeps going on and on...confusion, lightbulb moment, confusion, lightbulb moment. It's like Willie Wonka's everlasting gobstopper.

That is how it went for me anyway.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


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