Bandit, Cowboy & bsms...muddling through together - Page 59 - The Horse Forum
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post #581 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 06:48 PM
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Ask, Explain, Convince does sound like the modern way to manage employees, although my DH, being old-school, would probably still stay that for his workers the Demand part makes more sense and I think his employees have probably learned after all these years to hear his Demand as something that they want to convince themselves to do since they do learn a lot and get the satisfaction of finding a job done right. Interesting to hear middle-aged son get after dad as needing to handle employees more like thinking human beings... maybe DH will get it more if I explain it in this "horse-training" vernacular, as a near accident was caused by using force too soon on a creek crossing during pony's first pack trip this summer. Think the idea of more patience got through for 2nd trip, but, it is sometimes hard for old dogs to learn new tricks :\
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post #582 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 07:21 PM
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I do also slap my leg with the reins occasionally. But it's a gentle thing on the line of coaxing a little with my heels. I think of it as communication only and I believe Hondo does too.

I actually hit Hondo in the rump the other day with a lead rope when he was showing too much aggression toward Dragon to my liking. He looked at me with an expression that I read as, "What do you think you're doing?"

If I had done that during the first year it would have sent him off. The degree to which he showed no fear or alarm that I might actually hurt him made the day for me. Yes, he got some TLC.
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I think it important to always be mindful that the horse actually owes us nothing at all and it is we who owe the horse. "It's a goal"
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post #583 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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One of the things I had to accept in the military was that some people just won't respond to positive motivation. Near the end of my career, I had a passed-over major dumped on me. He had 5 months left to retirement, had been passed over multiple times, was in Korea and bitter. During those last 5 months, I never found a way to get him to do anything more than just enough to avoid court martial.

But in my defense, he was 'given' to me by a guy who was about to court martial him in the hopes of not ruining the guy's life that way. There were others, too. Some folks just will not work without threat of punishment.

During the final 6 months of my career, I tore a civilian a new butthole. He'd been obstructing things, and I caught him lying to me. I chewed him out in front of a bunch of witnesses. He said he'd report me. I offered to go with him and chew him out in front of whoever he wanted to report me to, then took a deep breath and started in again. He wasn't in my 'chain of command', but I was sure going to make everyone know what I thought of him.

Didn't get in trouble, although my boss told me a better officer would inspire people. But that was the guy who couldn't have motivated an angry cat to get out of a paper sack, so I took his criticism...well, I went home, had a brew and laughed about it.

The last week on duty, we had a conference wrapping up a project. Folks came in from around the country. Two Chief Master Sergeants pulled me aside and asked me how I did it. "Did what?", I asked. "Get XXXX to do his job!", they replied. Said that XXXX had been there 7 years, and I was the first one who had ever gotten any work out of him. A TSgt who worked with XXXX overheard and started laughing. Said XXXX hated me with a passion and would have killed me if he thought he could get away with it, but he did his job to keep me from storming into the office and publicly chewing his butt again. The two CMSgts laughed, then agreed it was sad that some people acted that way - and sadder still that so many LET them get away with it.

There were people I could not motivate. But Bandit is a more cheerful fellow. He'd be a self-starter in business terms.
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #584 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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Since Bandit had a cut near the corner of his mouth, I brought out his new sidepull halter and we tried it in the arena this afternoon. My wife actually took movies, which were weird because they were done in slow motion. It is kind of cool to see Bandit trotting and cantering in slow motion. I need to get a Youtube account.

My wife said I was bouncing. I pointed out that I had shortened the stirrups, and my crotch probably touched the saddle at time, but only briefly and lightly. Afterward, I realized I had a Buck Ranger knife in my back pocket, which is a big hunk of steel to be riding with - but my butt didn't spend much time touching. That is OK - my goal for this afternoon was to work on shorter stirrups and going bitless.

I think Bandit was a bit wound up, so to speak, about being bitless. But I enjoyed how forward he was. The pictures are blurry because they are enlargements from a video. I really got a kick to see Bandit and I in slow motion. It was revealing....I remain a "5 Ingredient Rider" - a guy whose riding is very simplified because, frankly, I'm not good enough to do more.

Trotting:



Cantering:



In the cantering picture, Bandit's right rear hoof had just touched down, while the other 3 are airborne. And I was also trying to make sure he didn't veer right and leave the arena.

My stirrups were two holes shorter than normal, but I liked them that way for arena riding. I've got to think hard about shortening them for trail riding. How would a spook be like this? I dunno...not sure I want to find out.

OTOH, I'm not exactly riding with super short stirrups anyways.

PS - I sometimes accuse Bandit of being a little homely, kind of like me. But I think Bandit looks nice in these pictures. Pity I'm not as good an athlete as he is...but I'm a lot older, too!

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #585 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 10:00 PM
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in the trot photo, you both look loose and forward. love it.

in the canter, you are leaning forward, but since this is his strike off portion of the canter, he will be in his most front-lifted position, and you will feel slightly as if on an uphill angle. you could lean back a bit more, but there's hardly a single amatuer rider who doesnt lean forward to much. I know I do.

the stirrup height is perfect, in my eyes.
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post #586 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 10:12 PM
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Great pictures. I see a rider in balance and a horse using his body well.

For me, the perfect stirrup length is short enough I can get off the saddle during a gallop or a patch of rough ground where the horse is very bouncy, but long enough that my ankles, knees and feet don't hurt after five minutes. This varies from horse to horse and even saddle to saddle.

Very rough horses require a shorter stirrup because they will bounce up higher and you won't stay clear of the saddle otherwise. Very smooth horses can be ridden in a very long stirrup because you can be an inch off the saddle and never get "hit" by it during their strides. That's how it works for me, practically.

*******************************************
What floors me the most about the pervasive inability to see the horse as an autonomous creature with feelings and emotions is that it is just as common among natural horsemanship people as it is among the rough rider types.

Just the other day I read a post on a group on FB for bitless riders. It went something like, "It was just terrible. I was on my horse and suddenly it was like there was no control, no connection and I'm devastated because this means our bond is completely gone."

I thought, why is it all about you? What was going on with the horse?

It seems to me that people don't value their horse as an individual, a creature with a completely unique personality they can get to know and appreciate with all its pleasant and difficult aspects. Instead, they want this weird thing where the horse gazes at them with starry eyes, worships them and does everything they ask without questioning because of their great bond and relationship. Or (for the non "natural" types) the horse behaves the same way as an obedient slave because they demand unquestioning obedience.

In life, dogs are the closest creature I know of that can possibly fit this bill, but even dogs aren't quite up for that task. Sometimes a rat will run across the path under the dog's nose and instinct takes over.

I'd love to have either of these types take Halla on for a bit and see how it goes. Although I'd have to specify that her current tack was used for everyone's safety. Ask, explain, convince is the ONLY thing that will work for a horse like her.
Yesterday, she would have preferred to choose her own path although the beach had debris scattered everywhere.

I'd ask Halla to take a path to the left. She'd say "No, thanks, this path is fine for me."

I'd say, "Please take a path to the left because there is a log on the right we're about to trip over."

She'd say "Weeellllll....OK. You've convinced me."
Then abruptly, we'd go where I'd been asking her to go.

If I did ask, tell, demand, we'd end up falling over the log with Halla's neck cranked around to the left as we went down in a heap.

Yes, in an emergency you will push a good friend out of the way of harm, even if it's rude and you hurt them a bit. But for everyday life, you don't insist that they do everything you want to do, when you want to do it. A friend doesn't always go to the movie you want to see, eat the food you think they should, follow your exact timelines. That's a slave, not a friend.
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post #587 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, tinyliny. I appreciate your comments. I'm weak at cantering because we don't do it much. The arena is kind of small and Bandit needs work on his flexibility before he'll be able to canter OK in it. And I doubt he'll ever be much better than OK. There are places off property, but my wife isn't up for any real cantering and I still have trust issues with Bandit cantering alone. As in many things, I limit Bandit more than I enable him...but we're building trust.

I was pleased at how he went bitless today, but we'll need to experiment more.

So we're working on it...

"A friend doesn't always go to the movie you want to see, eat the food you think they should, follow your exact timelines. That's a slave, not a friend.
"

Indeed. Yet obedient slave is what we seem to train people to want from a horse. Control = safe. Except a horse who is in agreement with you is a much safer ride. A horse who understands and accepts is a much safer ride.

Bandit has some issues. I have some issues. It really isn't anything like what a lot of NH types discuss, but I think we are starting to feel comfortable with working on our issues together. It is very much a two way street, a continual give and take. It isn't a "bond". It isn't something supernatural that descends after 3 round pen sessions, or by my whispering something. It is trust rooted in experience, but it is also trust that requires accepting some risk. Trust has to be tested and challenged for it to grow.
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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by bsms; 11-05-2016 at 10:36 PM. Reason: grammer
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post #588 of 1970 Old 11-05-2016, 10:43 PM
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I don't canter much either. it's really ridiculous. but, X soon becomes very bunched up at the canter, and I've worked the last year in getting him to lenthen out and lower his neck and stop sucking back. as soon as we start cantering, all that goes to hell.

when I ride my friend's horse, he will canter at the drop of a hat, but my back is not able to deal well with the motion. it's truly pitiful.
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post #589 of 1970 Old 11-06-2016, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Since Bandit had a cut near the corner of his mouth, I brought out his new sidepull halter and we tried it in the arena this afternoon. My wife actually took movies, which were weird because they were done in slow motion. It is kind of cool to see Bandit trotting and cantering in slow motion. I need to get a Youtube account.
If you ever do get a youtube account please post it - I would love to watch your videos.
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post #590 of 1970 Old 11-06-2016, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cammey View Post
If you ever do get a youtube account please post it - I would love to watch your videos.
You won't love it after you see it! This is cantering. I've got to say, watching myself in slow-motion is embarrassing. It is kind of scary. Every flaw in slooo-mooootioooon.

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Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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