Trotters, Arabians, Donkeys and Other People - Page 194 - The Horse Forum
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post #1931 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 06:21 AM
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@SueC , I can't believe that Sunsmart is 22! He is in great shape. And, after my horrendous 'trail' ride this past weekend,
I have unfortunately been reminded of what an "average riding school type horse" can be like. But, do you have plans to bring a younger horse into training?


My mother was a middle school health, well-being and sex educator (BS in Phys Ed and M.Ed. in health/special needs). Having said that, she simply gave me a couple of books to read and said, "Read this and tell me if you have any questions."

Anyway, in her classroom, she had an open-door policy: anyone could ask anything, but if you were too embarrassed you could talk to her outside of class or slip her a note and she would answer the question in class.

She has always said that the most embarrassingly difficult era to be a sex ed teacher was during the Clinton administration!

But, I have the feeling that sex ed was much more explicit (in my experience in Massachusetts, a historically liberal, revolutionary state) in the 1980's and early 90's because parents were scared senseless about their kids getting HIV and dying from AIDs. Unfortunately, here in Spain there is no sex ed at all, other than the human reproduction classes that are part of the biology curriculum. And sexually-transmitted diseases are not often discussed, so we now have the highest HIV rate in Europe, with 10 new diagnoses per day (pop. 45 million), although 54% of these diagnoses are homosexual men, and only 25% infections through heterosexual sex.

@Dante , in reference to the spermicide, I get a reaction from it, so we don't use it.

Quote:
When the girl got pregnant, it was considered her responsibility.
@SueC , I have a very strong aversion to the phrase, "She got pregnant." It puts all the responsibility on the woman, as if the man had nothing to do with it. When a male friend told me about why he got married so young, he said, "...and she got pregnant." To which I replied, "You mean you got her pregnant, because she certainly didn't do it herself." The look on his face!

Re-educating the masses...
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post #1932 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 10:29 AM
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@Spanish Rider ....there's also the bizarre phrase I heard someone utter once: "she had become pregnant..." As though it was immaculate conception or something that didn't involve two somewhat irresponsible people???
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post #1933 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteDressageNerd View Post
This made me cry of laughter

Also interested about the spermicide condoms vs regular condoms. I think spermicides are less popular because of the chemicals and there isnt as much as fear of HIV, thought maybe there should be?

I really think men and women are lacking a proper sexual education, I dont really remember a lot of sex education but it had barely anything to do about sex. Just about the parts of boys and girls, what they do and how sex works. But not how to put on a condom. More how to say no and that you can still pregnant, even with protection. The teacher teaching got pregnant in High School while on the pill, taking it at the correct time daily and her bf using a condom. I dont think she was lying, I think just bad luck. I also dont think she was prude, just had to teach by the districts requirement.

But gotta say seems most sex ed is on self discovery and education, rather than in a class room which is not comprehensive at all and barely covers female anatomy and sexual function. Always about men and how they ejaculate and that leads to conception. With nothing in terms of female enjoyment or pleasure. Just not a great dialog.

Think anything public is still exceptionally prude in the western world.
They could always introduce a few issues of the Cosmopolitan magazine for "requires reading" should cover most of the main points

On a Christian note: Song of Solomon, one of the old testament books of the Bible has quite a lot to say on sex and it's mutual enjoyment. I will say that THAT was an illuminating evening at the Bible study. My 19yo self was quite surprised since up until that point SoS was just a dull poetry book with weird beauty standards for women (your hair is like a flock of sheep on the hillside?!?!). I believe the lady teaching the class did a great job explaining the ancient inuendos and held back no details on the topic.

Those are my thoughts on the topic as an unmarried virgin lol.


"Stay ON the horse IN the arena" -my trainer.
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post #1934 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 01:16 PM
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from @Spanish Rider ,
Quote:
And, after my horrendous 'trail' ride this past weekend,
I have unfortunately been reminded of what an "average riding school type horse" can be like
Did I miss this interesting story? Did you tell it somewhere else? Can we hear about your horrendous trail ride?
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post #1935 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteDressageNerd View Post
This made me cry of laughter

Also interested about the spermicide condoms vs regular condoms. I think spermicides are less popular because of the chemicals and there isnt as much as fear of HIV, thought maybe there should be?
It's because it's no longer untreatable, but I certainly wouldn't want to put myself at risk of it. HIV infection rates are currently up again in Australia because people have become more blasť about condoms.

The saddest thing is infection of unwitting spouses by cheating partners.


Quote:
I really think men and women are lacking a proper sexual education, I dont really remember a lot of sex education but it had barely anything to do about sex. Just about the parts of boys and girls, what they do and how sex works. But not how to put on a condom.
In Australian secular schools, for the Year 10 human reproduction topic, the carrots-and-condoms practical is traditional (carrots are cheaper than cucumbers, and more resilient and reusable), with students working in pairs to practice correct application techniques. This is a good icebreaker for young people to get over embarrassment and ďickyĒ Ė plus itís so much better to have practice runs in a rational frame of mind and with good lighting and expertise present. As an added bonus, once proficiency has been achieved, you can all have a balloon party.


Quote:
More how to say no and that you can still pregnant, even with protection. The teacher teaching got pregnant in High School while on the pill, taking it at the correct time daily and her bf using a condom. I dont think she was lying, I think just bad luck. I also dont think she was prude, just had to teach by the districts requirement.
Countries that focus on teaching abstinence have the highest teenage pregnancy rates, while those who educate about contraceptive choices without moral judgement have the lowest teenage pregnancy rates. Scandinavian countries are world leaders here.


Quote:
But gotta say seems most sex ed is on self discovery and education, rather than in a class room which is not comprehensive at all and barely covers female anatomy and sexual function. Always about men and how they ejaculate and that leads to conception. With nothing in terms of female enjoyment or pleasure. Just not a great dialog.
Yes, it's been a huge issue that sex education curricula in schools (and often elsewhere) focus more on male anatomy and sexuality than on female anatomy and sexuality. Everybody talks about penises, erections and wet dreams, but few people even show an anatomically correct diagram of female anatomy, let alone discuss female sexuality as more than just a receptacle for a penis.

In my classroom, any science-related question to do with sex was answered - personal ones were not (working with minors means you have to be really conservative about that). We also weren't doing the Kama Sutra, but people can find that in the library anyway. I had a question box where people could post their question for the next discussion session. It was sent around the classroom and everyone was asked to post a question. This way, everyone participated, but questions were anonymous.

The funniest question I ever had in the box was, "What is the pressure in psi of the average male erection?" I said I didn't know this offhand, but asked if anyone had any ideas on how to design an experiment that would answer their question - and it had to get past the ethics committee - and you couldn't have people self-reporting because they might be tempted to exaggerate. Three kids put their heads together and then one of them said, "Sphygmomanometer, Miss!"

Usually, people asked things like if it was possible to get pregnant standing up etc, and a whole bunch of basic technical questions like that. Sometimes it got philosophical, e.g. "Why do people have orgasms?" Well...evolutionary reward for behaviour involved in propagating the species... and also, if people didn't, they would spend much more time on the activity instead of reverting to other behaviours, like preparing good food or doing their chores.

The anatomy my students learnt was egalitarian - properly detailed plumbing for males and females, function of each "bit", tested with fanfare. Students sometimes argued, "But I can ride a bicycle without reading the manual!" and I told them about the amount of people who get admitted each year to A&E because of having gym weights and other objects irrecoverably stuck to their penises. This statistic is based on the misapprehension that the penis is operated by big muscles which respond to training. The most common mislabelling for the corpus cavernosum / corpus spongiosum is "muscle" - but that's bound to happen if you only teach anatomical terms without teaching anatomical function. I taught both, so they got the idea of hydrostatic pressure and the mechanisms behind inflation and deflation, and why it's a really bad idea to put narrow constricting objects around the penis (and other appendages).

Of course, the students always want to know how doctors deal with such unfortunate scenarios. I would say that there were convincing arguments that Darwinism should be allowed to follow its course, but doctors can't invoke the laws of natural selection, and therefore usually try things like ice packs and, if that doesn't work, partial drainage of the engorged blood via hypodermic syringes. (That always had them crossing their legs.)

If you've got everyone laughing, it's always a good start.

I do agree with many social commentators in Australia that there is a case for teaching specifically about female arousal and sexuality because a whole lot of young women still have little idea, and they shouldn't be forced to learn these things from Cosmopolitan, peer gossip and pornography - the latter, unfortunately, is one of the main "educators" on the subject for teenagers, and it presents a terribly superficial, objectified, scripted version of sex which is then used as a template by many young people; and this template isn't actually very helpful - as recent research on increasing levels of sexual dysfunction in young adults has shown.

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post #1936 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knightrider View Post
from @Spanish Rider ,

Did I miss this interesting story? Did you tell it somewhere else? Can we hear about your horrendous trail ride?
I second this - we absolutely must hear about that!

And how did DH hold up on that excursion?
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post #1937 of 2048 Old 06-05-2019, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanish Rider View Post
@SueC , I can't believe that Sunsmart is 22! He is in great shape. And, after my horrendous 'trail' ride this past weekend,
I have unfortunately been reminded of what an "average riding school type horse" can be like. But, do you have plans to bring a younger horse into training?
Sunsmart says thanks you for the compliments. He is wearing about 40kg more fat than I'd like him to just now, which I guess matches my own excess 5kg. In part that's because I fractured my foot last year and he had eight weeks off going into spring flush. He's always had to be kept in quite intense work not to stack it on, even when he was dry lot fed in his previous existence. I actually had him in consistent endurance shape before we built our house, but that became hard to do when they closed off the western forests and our main fitness trails (20km loops) with a big padlock. That sort of put a damper on things until our neighbour allowed me to ride on his adjoining block - and last bushfire season he even put a direct gate in for us, so I didn't have to go on the road first!

This is him with the gang after coming back from a trail ride in late summer:



This is Sunsmart with his younger half-brother Julian (same sire).



I don't like to contemplate the fact that Sunsmart will be retired in around five years... and my dog old...

Julian is 18 and I've been hand walking him around trails in preparation for saddle training because he wants to work. He often tags along with Sunsmart and me when we do farm tracks. He always loved his harness work, so I decided I would saddle train him as a second trail horse - but my foot fracture last year and then my stress fracture a month ago again dropped that off my to-do list. However, he is now very familiar with the nearby trails, and taking a horse from harness training to saddle is in my experience simple and the basics only take a day or two once you hop on.

I've done this with a half dozen or so harness horses - Sunsmart obviously, but also Romeo, Mediterranean, Chip, Chip's sister, Sunsmart's mother, etc. They all already know how to work, they just need to get used to carrying a rider, and different signalling. It's funny, they only seem to need a lap or so of a training track with a rider on and someone leading them to be used to the idea of carrying someone. Then, it's starting with verbal communication and a riding crop to tap them on the hindquarters (as they are signalled with a driving whip when in harness), while you simultaneously teach them the leg and seat aids. My stress fracture is mostly healed now, so I suppose I'll stick a saddle on Julian later this month, and go from there. They are really cooperative horses and very professional already.

Julian and me on walks recently:

Trotters, Arabians, Donkeys and Other People-123.jpg



Julian in harness days:



He's only 14.3hh, to Sunsmart's 15.2hh, so just a smidgen taller than my Arabian mare was, but very strong and solid and will be fine to carry me.



So that should give me statistically another four years after Sunsmart retires. After that, we'll see.

This is Julian with Chasseur, Nelly and Benjamin.



Chasseur is our "oldie" now at age 25; he's the grandson of the French mare I rode as a child, and looks the most like her. He had a track injury and was paddock sound only after that, so never ridden. His late full sister is Sunsmart's mother. He's also the nicest horse just to have around, he has a beautiful nature...

SueC is time travelling.

Last edited by SueC; 06-05-2019 at 09:55 PM.
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post #1938 of 2048 Old 06-06-2019, 02:54 AM
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Iíve been out of the network again. My wife, Joannah, just spent a week in the hospital. @ctually that was a few weeks ago, but getting her home and settled and Dr appointments. . . .

Iím intrigued by the discussion on pregnancy and abortion, but reluctant as an old entitled male to get involved. I acknowledge it takes two to tango. My youngest is testament to the fact birth control doesnít always work even for well educated consenting couples, but, there is some very interesting data based literature that indicates developed countries with good access to health care, contraception and abortion have much fewer abortions than developing countries, AND! the USA has the the highest abortion rate of developed countries even surpassing some developing countries.

My experience supports the belief abortion leaves emotional and spiritual scars.

How does the USA stop yelling pro life. Pro choice and develop meaningful dialogue about sex and procreation that leads to change? What economic changes would help?
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post #1939 of 2048 Old 06-06-2019, 04:05 AM
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How does the USA stop yelling pro life. Pro choice and develop meaningful dialogue about sex and procreation that leads to change? What economic changes would help?
Oh, I definitely do not want to feign superior intelligence on this one. As I said before, there are just too many grey areas. However, my opinion is that during sex ed classes, I also believe that the flip side needs to be seriously addressed: what the actual process of abortion entails (with graphics) as well as fetal development at different stages and the psychological effects it has on women/girls forced to make these choices, along with their testimony. And abstinence should always be put forth as the gold-standard contraceptive method! Ethics and morality should also be discussed, but the separation between church and State should really be respected on this point.

Quote:
Did I miss this interesting story? Did you tell it somewhere else? Can we hear about your horrendous trail ride?
@knightrider and @SueC , ugh. It is all my fault, really. Nothing exceptionally bad happened: a 40-min walk around a couple of fields on an old lesson horse. DH made the awesome effort of making the appt. and actually getting on a horse (a PRE). He was relaxed & chatty and would definitely do it again, so everything was great in that sense.

But, I am the problem. I guess I have too many unrealistic expectations, and sometimes it is still hard for me to come to terms with the fact that I no longer have a horse. So, yes, I have to put up with the horses that I am given (I was given a crop to get the poor dear to walk). Sad circumstances for the horse, I got depressed, had to constantly put leg on and wound up screwing up my back. I could not drive afterwards and slept with a heating pad.

So, now I am more aware of my brokenness, and now I wonder: why bother? I guess I am just destined to ride kids' lesson ponies, which is the only way I have been able to ride without pain. Perhaps I have just been fooling myself for the past 18 months.

As a result, I skipped class on Tuesday. Today's class will be crap because of my mental state, but I have to get through it. I am thinking about walking away from it all, though.
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post #1940 of 2048 Old 06-06-2019, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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@Rob55 , welcome back, how is Joannah doing? I hope she has a speedy and full recovery. We've just had to deal with a similar situation with a friend who usually comes to eat with us on Sundays - Bill, who's 84 and was born in this district, and who did a lot of the fencing and hazard reduction burning on this piece of land we're on before we bought it back in 2010. He's a wonderful amateur naturalist and storyteller, and basically a history textbook of the local district. Unfortunately he collapsed with a heart attack just over a week ago. Had this happened at his home, he would not have survived (he lives alone), but it happened in a shopping centre and people with first aid skills were immediately helping, plus there was a defibrillator, and he was right next door to the regional hospital as well. We heard the news from his neighbour when Brett tried to drop some of our baking off to him in town. He was flown to a hospital in Perth 400km away and had stents inserted, as well as a pacemaker. We've been unable to contact him because his phone battery went flat, but have just had a call from one of his daughters to say he is doing OK. He is a little confused, but he recognised everyone and understands what has happened to him,

This is him here, with Brett, at one of our Sunday lunches - we always use it as an excuse to make a feast day:



If anyone has good vibes to beam to him, it would be much appreciated. It's nice to know people care, and I do think it makes a difference when they do - and in wider ways than to a particular situation.

Brett and I will beam good vibes over to you and Joannah.

Thank you for your contribution to the current discussion here. While there was a pregnancy and abortion in the novel which gave rise to the discussion, the novel was very much trying to make the point that family dysfunction is behind so much pain in this world, and behind so many mistakes that people make. Anna Fienberg set out to show that simplistic thinking is unhelpful in scenarios like this, as is moral judgement, especially considering we live in a secular society where people with diverse sets of beliefs are living side by side. She wrote a compassionate and engaging account of growing up in a dysfunctional family, and its consequences through several generations - and unfortunately, the majority of children grow up in families with significant problems. Therefore, compassion and understanding are needed when approaching such issues.

I agree heartily with many of your points, and thank you for your manner of engaging in this discussion. And I personally think it's important that men and women (and boys and girls and intersexes etc too) are involved in such discussions.

Re emotional scarring from abortion though, there are women who are significantly affected by this, and also women who are not - so both sides exist. Furthermore, a lot of women who have given up babies for adoption have emotional scarring, and usually far worse emotional scarring than those who had abortions - there are no guarantees that the adopting family will be lovely and the child happy, and also, in adoption, a mother is giving up a complete, full-term (or near it) baby which she has given birth to, and this is not comparable biologically (and generally emotionally) either with having an early miscarriage, or having an early-term abortion. And for those who keep their babies after birth, there may be significant emotional scarring from not being able to bring the child into the kind of situation that they would really have wanted for a child of their own - such as having a supportive father, a healthy loving relationship, reasonable means instead of poverty, absence of huge life stressors such as mental or physical illness - and the chances of reducing family dysfunction from their own family of origin patterns may in such situations be much reduced.


@Spanish Rider , I do think we have to distinguish between who is physically pregnant (pregnancy means carrying developing offspring in your body), and who is ethically responsible. So, in humans, as with most mammals, it's the females who get pregnant - who incubate the offspring in their own bodies until they are able to survive in the outside environment. I say in most mammals, because here in Australia we have monotremes, who lay eggs!

The platypus:




The echidna - showing eggs, baby echidna, and an adult...







In Australia, we also have viviparous snakes, and gastric-brooding frogs. With the snakes, it's the females who basically hold on to the eggs internally until they hatch there. With gastric-brooding frogs, males can be involved in incubating the young - and with seahorses, it's the males who get physically pregnant:



Here's a fascinating article on the similarities between human and seahorse pregnancies:

https://sydney.edu.au/dam/corporate/...0.2099.2x.jpeg

I completely agree with you that (in consenting sex) a male and female human are both ethically responsible for a pregnancy. I don't mind people saying "This couple is pregnant" because it underscores the mutual responsibility for the condition. But, I do think that biologists need to be able to continue to distinguish between which gender is carrying the young. So, when a couple is pregnant, the male is not physically pregnant - but he is potentially reproducing! In horses, the mares get pregnant, not the stallions - but both sexes reproduce via this arrangement.

And wouldn't life be so much simpler if humans just laid eggs, like emus do...

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