Trotters, Arabians, Donkeys and Other People - Page 61 - The Horse Forum
 10777Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #601 of 2633 Old 07-14-2018, 12:41 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,219
• Horses: 2
Great story and video about Halla, thanks for sharing. What a great horse! She sounds rather like my Halla - a bit opinionated but sensitive and courageous.

So cute about the donkeys. I started playing with some social animals last night, since I wanted to trim the goats and they seem to feel getting caught is quite negative. They are only handled once a month when I trim their hooves. So I started playing and backing up, then running forward to push my hands against the goat heads. They soon were rearing up, galloping around and head butting each other. The only problem was that there was no "off" switch for the play, and when I was trying to trim one goat, the other one kept playing and butted me twice, quite hard! I've known for many years that you don't turn your back on a sheep or goat, and especially never bend over.

When I took my two horses on a walk, we ran into some elk with babies but everyone was very mellow so they didn't exit when they saw us come into the field, but everyone just grazed together. I think it is interesting how one elk will "babysit" and have all the babies while the others do other things. The smallest female had all six babies tagging along with her.
bsms, SueC and Knave like this.
gottatrot is offline  
post #602 of 2633 Old 07-14-2018, 01:09 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,892
• Horses: 3
Oh, that's all so cute and lovely, @gottatrot !

Have you seen this?


Or this? The facial expressions are priceless!



Will you be milking any of your goats?

Have fun hoof trimming. I've got to do 6 more donkey hooves today! Hope you have a good night shift.
gottatrot and Knave like this.

SueC is time travelling.
SueC is offline  
post #603 of 2633 Old 07-14-2018, 02:50 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,892
• Horses: 3
By the way, @gottatrot / all, I've just watched the follow-up interview in German with the rider looking back at that point in history, and talking about that horse. He's got some really interesting things to say, about Halla, horses and animals in general, and I'm happy to translate if anyone requests it!

bsms and Knave like this.

SueC is time travelling.
SueC is offline  
post #604 of 2633 Old 07-14-2018, 11:03 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 3,071
• Horses: 0
@SueC it is funny that you mentioned Bones when talking about letting a horse think for themselves. He truly exemplifies that concept.
Also, I 100% agree that a horse who thinks on their own will beat the horses who donít in competition, but that is in the competitions I have participated in.

Bones was sold to me with very few rides and almost no groundwork. It took only a couple of day of working with him for the trainer who had such high hopes in his breeding to decide there was no way he would be his great stud horse. So, he was cut (or not fully, but thatís another story) and sold to me. He had a few issues, but one of the main reasons he did not like him was his dullness. I was taken with his movement and friendliness and I bought him.

It is an odd thing that such a hot bred horse is spectacularly dull. It could relate to the other issue he has, but in any case he actually is extremely dull. That being said, I found he is also a very talented athlete once I started teaching him things. He is overly ambitious too, and very emotional.

He is super smart, so once he understood the tasks I gave him he excelled. At only five this year, he can read a cow when we are working much better than I can. For example, when we are preg checking cattle, Bones and I are in the back pushing them into the chute. They donít like being preg checked, so they will get on the fight. He knows when they are bluffing and he can push them in, but unlike most super aggressive horses like him, he also knows when they donít see him and will hit him, so he makes sure he catches their eye and if not he sidesteps before he gets hit.

When helping someone start a colt I donít have to even ride him. He reads what that person is doing and needing from that colt. Heíll fall behind just a few steps to slow them down, or heíll push in front to break them loose. I am never lacking amazement at how smart he is.

I have seen other people try and ride him, and if they donít let him think it is a wreck. He is kind, but confused and they are so rough because he is dull. I wonít let those types on him anymore. The kids though he is amazing for. He helps them do what is in front of them.
bsms, gottatrot and SueC like this.

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaamís Donkey
Knave is offline  
post #605 of 2633 Old 07-14-2018, 01:26 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 12,329
• Horses: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by SueC View Post
...I don't get people who have to be drill-sergeant Nazis with their horses, and control their every move and if possible, their every thought. It leaves the horse completely out of the equation, and treats it as a mere vassal. They come from a position of "I know better than the horse" - presumably as part of the common view amongst humans of humans as the very crown of creation - and actually, no, they don't know better. Horses are wonderfully at home in nature, and fabulous guides of humans in their world, if we'll let them show us...
Here is some perspective on it from VS Littauer, writing in "Schooling Your Horse":

Quote:
The Mental Part of Schooling - Cooperation

Any schooling is a course in physical and mental education. The latter has to be brought to the point where the horse understand signals and responds correctly to them. Any great rider, whether a High School rider or jumper, naturally seeks to influence the cooperation of his horse which enables him to turn the forceful aids of early schooling into merely light signals. On the higher planes of riding this is so, no matter what the game is, and the difference will lie only in the degree practical for a specific type of riding. But it does not obtain on the lower levels. For instance, my teachers of 40 years ago never used the word "cooperation", their favorite terms were "discipline" and "obedience". Instead of my own stock phrase "and now leave your horse alone", I always heard, "don't be a passenger, ride your horse".

Probably due in part to the continued importance of cavalry throughout the 19th centaury, and the constant constraint which cavalry formations imposed upon the horse and rider [Note: Littauer served in the Russian Cavalry, including the front lines in World War One], the belief that good riding consisted in general of the mastery of the horse by force, applied through the technical dexterity of the rider's legs and hands, remained unshaken for many generations. Today (1956) [Note: Before I was born!] the ideal of many of us is the cheerful cooperation, in hacking, in the hunting field or over obstacles, of our partner, the horse. Depending on the individual ability of the trainer, on the mental and emotional make-up of his horse, etc, this ideal can be attained in varying degrees.
Consider the "Charge of the Light Brigade" - 7 minutes exposed to fire BEFORE engaging, and equally long in retreat:


Picture from Wiki, along with this quote from a survivor:

Quote:
The first shell burst in the air about 100 yards in front of us. The next one dropped in front of Nolan's horse and exploded on touching the ground. He uttered a wild yell as his horse turned round, and, with his arms extended, the reins dropped on the animal's neck, he trotted towards us, but in a few yards dropped dead off his horse. I do not imagine that anybody except those in the front line of the 17th Lancers (13th Light Dragoons) saw what had happened.

We went on. When we got about two or three hundred yards the battery of the Russian Horse Artillery opened fire. I do not recollect hearing a word from anybody as we gradually broke from a trot to a canter, though the noise of the striking of men and horses by grape and round shot was deafening, while the dust and gravel struck up by the round shot that fell short was almost blinding, and irritated my horse so that I could scarcely hold him at all. But as we came nearer I could see plainly enough, especially when I was about a hundred yards from the guns. I appeared to be riding straight on to the muzzle of one of the guns, and I distinctly saw the gunner apply his fuse. I shut my eyes then, for I thought that settled the question as far as I was concerned. But the shot just missed me and struck the man on my right full in the chest.

In another minute I was on the gun and the leading Russian's grey horse, shot, I suppose, with a pistol by somebody on my right, fell across my horse, dragging it over with him and pinning me in between the gun and himself. A Russian gunner on foot at once covered me with his carbine. He was just within reach of my sword, and I struck him across his neck. The blow did not do much harm, but it disconcerted his aim. At the same time a mounted gunner struck my horse on the forehead with his sabre. Spurring "Sir Briggs," he half jumped, half blundered, over the fallen horses, and then for a short time bolted with me. I only remember finding myself alone among the Russians trying to get out as best I could. This, by some chance, I did, in spite of the attempts of the Russians to cut me down.
Riding like that, in formation! while being fired at with cannon all around...is there any doubt why the cavalry of the day emphasized total control on one's horse?

But isn't it equally obvious that no one in my lifetime has ever needed to do so? If Littauer, who had seen combat while mounted, could adjust over 60 years ago, what excuse is there for someone who has NEVER needed anything like that to mindlessly continue that approach to training?


gottatrot, SueC and Knave like this.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"

Last edited by bsms; 07-14-2018 at 01:33 PM.
bsms is offline  
post #606 of 2633 Old 07-15-2018, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,892
• Horses: 3
Thank you for that, @bsms . It's always interesting to read the material you bring to the table, and your own reflections on it. Food for thought for me, and thinking is a good thing!

I'd say horse-riding isn't the only human pursuit where that phenomenon applies, either. I think this is a more generalised problem - sticking to particular models and ideas like they're an infallible religion and like critical thinking is some sort of blasphemy (and too much effort ).

Things that work in Situation A don't necessarily work in Situation B. Things that work in Situation A are not necessarily the best things for that situation either just because they work - maybe there are better ways that would work better, etc.

The Blind Men And The Elephant all over again too.
bsms, gottatrot and Knave like this.

SueC is time travelling.
SueC is offline  
post #607 of 2633 Old 07-15-2018, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,892
• Horses: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knave View Post
@SueC it is funny that you mentioned Bones when talking about letting a horse think for themselves. He truly exemplifies that concept.
Also, I 100% agree that a horse who thinks on their own will beat the horses who donít in competition, but that is in the competitions I have participated in.

Bones was sold to me with very few rides and almost no groundwork. It took only a couple of day of working with him for the trainer who had such high hopes in his breeding to decide there was no way he would be his great stud horse. So, he was cut (or not fully, but thatís another story) and sold to me. He had a few issues, but one of the main reasons he did not like him was his dullness. I was taken with his movement and friendliness and I bought him.

It is an odd thing that such a hot bred horse is spectacularly dull. It could relate to the other issue he has, but in any case he actually is extremely dull. That being said, I found he is also a very talented athlete once I started teaching him things. He is overly ambitious too, and very emotional.

He is super smart, so once he understood the tasks I gave him he excelled. At only five this year, he can read a cow when we are working much better than I can. For example, when we are preg checking cattle, Bones and I are in the back pushing them into the chute. They donít like being preg checked, so they will get on the fight. He knows when they are bluffing and he can push them in, but unlike most super aggressive horses like him, he also knows when they donít see him and will hit him, so he makes sure he catches their eye and if not he sidesteps before he gets hit.

When helping someone start a colt I donít have to even ride him. He reads what that person is doing and needing from that colt. Heíll fall behind just a few steps to slow them down, or heíll push in front to break them loose. I am never lacking amazement at how smart he is.

I have seen other people try and ride him, and if they donít let him think it is a wreck. He is kind, but confused and they are so rough because he is dull. I wonít let those types on him anymore. The kids though he is amazing for. He helps them do what is in front of them.
That is such an interesting horse portrait, @Knave . I've had to read it a couple of times, because of reconciling the word "dull", which in Australian usage is synonymous with stupid, and also boring. And clearly Bones is neither of these - he's clever, and super-interested in his environment - plays with balls etc, remembering an earlier clip you posted on another journal. I am guessing you mean "dull" as in flat / not hot / not speed crazy? But perhaps you can explain how y'all use that word where you are (which is not the Deep South, I gather, but I've recently adopted the phrase because it is more gender inclusive than "you guys" and sounds sort of cute! )

It's so interesting to hypothesise about horses and riders based on their body language and facial expressions! Your horse looks like he is thinking very carefully. You look like the sort of rider who encourages him to do that, and you look like you see him as your partner, and not your chattel. (And since I've gotten to read more of what you say, and talk to you more, I've also seen that reflected in the words you choose and in the attitudes you express.) I've got a question for you... how common is that approach to horses in your circles? Are you in a minority, or in a significant chunk, or in a majority there, in your riding circles?

What's your own feeling about what sort of riders / horse pursuits you see more of your own type of approach in?

Do you meet many "drill sergeants" in your part of the world? Do you see any association between that and insecurity as a rider / person? Obviously, world view will influence it, education/self-education, etc etc. And one thing that I've found is that a person who bullies other people is also almost always a person who bullies animals, and vice versa. These are just my own impressions / field data; I am very interested in other people's impressions and data!
bsms, gottatrot and Knave like this.

SueC is time travelling.
SueC is offline  
post #608 of 2633 Old 07-15-2018, 11:04 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 3,071
• Horses: 0
@SueC I said dull in reference to a lack of feeling. I can see where it would be a bad word choice as there are so many definitions!

So, I mean that he doesnít respond easily to leg or hand pressure. He can ignore it completely until it has gone too far. I have to ride him as if he were super light, which is counterintuitive, but it works. He maintains a level of lightness by doing that and allowing him his own though. That is why I said it was odd for such an athletic horse. He is not slow, and he even gets fairly hot if not managed well. I believe the lack of sensitivity relates to the fact that he is a self-mutilator. This means he has imaginary stud fights sometimes. Itís very dramatic. I know, it is odd, but arenít we all? Lol. Definitely not any of the other definitions of dull... they wanted me to put him down for it when I brought him home and learned of this bad attribute. However, he has never progressed but actually improved. He also would never do such a thing with a person there.

Let me think for a minute before I answer your next question. :)
bsms, gottatrot and SueC like this.

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaamís Donkey
Knave is offline  
post #609 of 2633 Old 07-15-2018, 11:13 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 3,071
• Horses: 0
Okay, there are a few drill sergeants at competition. In reining it benefits them to a degree, but in cutting and cowhorse it is a negative. A cutter or cowhorse will definitely score much better using its own thought process. I would go so far to say high level cutting horses will always think for themselves. Rodeo competitors, as far as the ones Iíve completed against, do not have the option of micromanaging their horses, so all of them think.

Now, the cowboy horses I have been around seem to always be given ample opportunities to use their minds. That is not to say that everyone is good to a horse by any means, but in working situations a person does not have time to always micromanage their horse.

Oddly, the more insecure of a rider in a working situation, the more a horse is given opportunity to make its own decisions. If someone doesnít care to use horses for more than just work, they own horses who are well broke to do their jobs. These horses are safe and experienced. A horse like Bones, when I put a child on him in a working situation, will pay attention to the task at hand and make adjustments for the child.
bsms, gottatrot and SueC like this.

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaamís Donkey
Knave is offline  
post #610 of 2633 Old 07-15-2018, 11:48 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 3,071
• Horses: 0
Oh, also, wouldnít you bet that more of the reason that Bones was sold to me cheap was because of his special trait? Lol
bsms, gottatrot and SueC like this.

Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? - Balaamís Donkey
Knave is offline  
Reply

Tags
donkeys , free-ranging horses , french trotters , life & the universe , riding standardbreds

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking up arabians and half arabians on data source! Twilight Arabians Horse Breeds 48 11-17-2013 08:21 PM
Arabians & Half-Arabians in Florida? RunRideNDive Horse Breeds 1 10-16-2012 04:48 PM
Come watch the Arabians and Half-Arabians compete at Dressage at Lexington July 13-15 HGEsquire Horse Shows 8 07-06-2012 07:12 PM
Introducing my Herd of Arabians and Half Arabians :) Spirit Thyme Horse Pictures 51 09-25-2010 11:52 PM
People with Arabians: What saddle do you use and like? Wallaby Horse Tack and Equipment 4 05-27-2009 12:05 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome