Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 12 - The Horse Forum
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post #111 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 01:21 PM
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[QUOTE=gottatrot;8793242]If you allow your horse to make decisions sometimes but otherwise he has to blindly obey you, how do you both know the difference? Are you really making the decision? QUOTE]

I lift the reins off his whither where they sit (along with my hand) when he is making the decisions.

Ah, the communication of neck reining!

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


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post #112 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 01:33 PM
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[quote=Reiningcatsanddogs;8794258]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
If you allow your horse to make decisions sometimes but otherwise he has to blindly obey you, how do you both know the difference? Are you really making the decision? QUOTE]

I lift the reins off his whither where they sit (along with my hand) when he is making the decisions.

Ah, the communication of neck reining!

Ah and the other way around with cutting, hand up, I will choose the cow, hand down it's your job to keep it, hand up, we're done.
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post #113 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 01:41 PM
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Golden Horse, Ha! I thought that was what I said. Sorry for the confusion sounded clear when I wrote it; hand on whither means it's all yours, hand up means instructions are forthcoming. :)

More coffee is necessary.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer



Last edited by Reiningcatsanddogs; 03-17-2016 at 01:59 PM.
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post #114 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 02:57 PM
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So many ****ing matches in one post. Hard to keep up.

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post #115 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiningcatsanddogs View Post
Golden Horse, Ha! I thought that was what I said. Sorry for the confusion sounded clear when I wrote it; hand on whither means it's all yours, hand up means instructions are forthcoming. :)

More coffee is necessary.
That sounds better!
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post #116 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiningcatsanddogs View Post
Golden Horse, Ha! I thought that was what I said. Sorry for the confusion sounded clear when I wrote it; hand on whither means it's all yours, hand up means instructions are forthcoming. :)

More coffee is necessary.
I read it before I was fully coffeed up so may have got it wrong as well, but LOL we are both saying the same thing!
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post #117 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
If you allow your horse to make decisions sometimes but otherwise he has to blindly obey you, how do you both know the difference? Are you really making the decision?

I've discussed this topic before with people who said their horses trusted them and therefore obeyed them. How do they know the horse is obeying them rather than just agreeing with them? I've seen this before. A horse decides to turn off the path or run with other horses. The rider cues to say "no, don't do that." The horse thinks again, agrees and decides it's OK to follow the cue.

However, with many horses, they will do this a hundred times but then one day they will disagree. This time, the horse says "no" and doesn't follow the rider's command.

What happens then?
I've seen with many riders a complete loss of respect or trust for the horse or the horse's training. One man I know was ready to give up horses altogether because his "child" as he viewed the horse, had betrayed the "trust" they had, and the supposed bond he thought they had. Another very smart friend of mine, a doctor stopped riding her horse after an incident like this and sent the horse back to the trainer.

Of course they had a bond, the horses liked their owners. But the horses were adult animals and did not put any blind faith in another creature. Why would they? Horses are not stupid and they have self preservation instincts.

I believe a relationship with a horse is similar to a relationship you might have with another adult friend, not with your child. If you and a trusted friend were in a house and it started on fire, and your friend said, "Wait, let's stay inside, I know it will be fine, you can trust me." You might either agree with the friend, or you might run for your life and disobey him. Would that mean you didn't trust him or that you didn't have a relationship with him? No, you just used your own judgment as a thinking person with a self-preservation instinct.

I don't expect any horse to follow my instruction blindly, and I think those who do expect this are fooling themselves because they have an agreeable horse that has a confident attitude. My horses are adults, not children. The best thing I can do is give them life experiences to teach them confidence in many different situations, not try to teach them to blindly obey me "no matter what." There's always going to be a "what" that will cause them to make their own decision, and that's something I accept working with another person. If you really need blind obedience you better just ride a motorcycle.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you.
If we just allow horses to follow their self preservation instincts, the allowing a horse to spook and bolt, would be okay
There are trails I ride, where I do happen to know the safest route. For instance, there is one spot on one trail, where you have to ride through a long muddy puddle, where the horse can't see bottom, but I know that there is a solid bottom. There is sort of a game trail, tot he side, through solid grassy looking ground, but where I know there is a major deep bog, having accidently ridden into it before I knew that trail
My horse is darn well going to have to trust my leadership, and ride through that muddy water hole, where i know that the bottom is solid!
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post #118 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:27 PM
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Gottatrot, I went back and read my post to make sure I had added (as I thought) examples of when my horse needs to obey me. I did give those examples, real life ones. The yellow jacket nest, where the horse and rider in front of us were horrible stung, and the state highway we need to cross to get up into the game lands.

I also gave examples of when I let him decided the best footing.

Trust runs both ways, and has to be equally earned. After eight years and many miles together we have each earned the others trust.

My horse is confident on the trail. He was not born a confident horse. He is definitely a boot scooting boogie type first, andthen turn around and look. I need to build his confidence, and I thought the best way to make him face his fears and move forward. The forward has made him confident in me and himself.

That being said, the one time I DID let him decide he wasn't going to walk through a huge mud puddle that the ATVs, and dirt bikes love, he stepped in hole and had a hard time yanking the leg out. When he did get it out, he had cut an artery. We werefour miles from the barn on a Sunday evening. Emergency barn call and 12 stitches later.

Food for thought; when I have made the decisions he has never needed 12 stitches......

As for me owning a motorcycle, that was uncalled for. I would pit me and my pony against any other horse rider combo.

There are many times I have not agreed with your philosophies, but thought that they were well thought out. I never told you that all you should own is a caiman or a gerbil.

I still hold to the fact that sometimes obedience is the only way. If I didn't hold true to that my kids would have never gotten up and gone to school, done homework, graduated HS, And finish college. They would probably still be living at home feeding off of my dollar. And my horse still wouldn't be crossing the state highway....eight years later.
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post #119 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:30 PM
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xxxxxx
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post #120 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:30 PM
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Back to bsms: can you explain, in your words, no cut and pasting allowed, what a half halt is?

it is useful out riding trails as well.
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