Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 13 - The Horse Forum
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post #121 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Starlite View Post
So many ****ing matches in one post. Hard to keep up.
I don't mind a good debate, or ****ing match! As long as name calling is out and references to your ability of owning an animal is also not involved.
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post #122 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:15 PM
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There's a huge difference between sometimes allowing a horse to make its own way somewhere and 'listening' to them and putting them permanently in the driving seat.
There's times when common sense based on facts/history should tell you that you need to be 100% in control and times when understanding the horse's own ability will tell you that it knows the safest or best route
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post #123 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I don't mind a good debate, or ****ing match! As long as name calling is out and references to your ability of owning an animal is also not involved.
Well said!
In a true ****ing match, don't just compare as to how cold that water is, but also how deep!
I actually resent that term, applied to an active, but polite debate
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post #124 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms
The stiffen to allow the back to transmit energy from the hind legs, not to the bit, but to the shoulders, moving the front legs - those useless appendages so often ignored in the language of dressage.
Yep, look at these riders in competition. They don't need those "useless appendages".

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post #125 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 03:52 PM
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It was a guy who loved dressage who taught me the concept of giving a horse rein when he is scared, instead of trying to hold him tight.
This is a completely different subject entirely. While I and many others collect our horses in the show ring, we certainly wouldn't ask for it out on the trail during a spook... It's fairly common sense that taking hold of the reins on a spooking or bolting horse will only make the situation worse. Collection, on the other hand, is used during performance only on a horse who is calm and working. Is it used on the trail at times? Absolutely, if asked and the horse is trained. But a lot of people who show understand the importance of taking their show horses out on the trail and just letting them be horses.

Some of us have merely said it is not needed for a good horse.
I think a lot of the outrage that is sparked on this forum regarding this subject is centered around this whole debatable idea of a "good" horse... A horse who is used for recreational riding is no less of a good horse than a level three dressage prospect so long as the training is there. A willingness to be obedient and demonstrating the thinking side of the brain (instead of reactive) is what defines a "good" horse to me - no matter what the discipline.

Horses can be trained to do a multitude of different jobs. If the horse's job is to be a Dressage horse, then he must be able to collect and be willing about it. If his job is to be a cutting horse, he must demonstrate a passion for chasing cows and the ability to sit his butt down and cut when asked. If his job is to be a hunt horse, he must be willing to travel in relaxed yet forward gaits and put his head in a pretty position when cued. If his job is to be a recreational trail horse, then he must demonstrate the ability to be sane and stable for his rider who depends on him for safety.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the heck his job is, as long as he is performing it to the best of his ability. Collection is not required for all disciplines or horseback activities... And collection should certainly NEVER be used to judge whether or not a horse is a "good" horse - unless of course it is required to do his job. That's just absurd.

NOTE: There are so many pages to this thread and I admit I haven't read all of them, so I do apologize if I've missed some things.
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post #126 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 06:55 PM
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I think people who believe their horses blindly obey them because they "respect" them as their leader or their "parent" have not tested that theory. Give your horse an electric shock to the underbelly or have a hornet sting them in the private parts and you can test your theory. You could also suddenly drop something that scrambles onto their head or set off a firework a foot ahead of them on the trail. Just don't allow them to spook or bolt, because otherwise that would mean they don't trust your leadership. Or perhaps they need more training.

Control is an illusion with horses, something I learned many years ago. Some people want to believe they have complete control over a well trained horse because it makes them feel safer. No one actually does, and I'm not talking about a horse slipping or tripping. A horse always retains a thinking brain, opinions and the ability to agree or disagree with a handler or rider. Some people only ride very agreeable horses so never fully understand that no matter how much training or experience a horse has, he remains his own person with the ability to make decisions.

I think people should know that every horse has a nemesis. You may have never met it, and maybe you never will. But I've been on horses that can be ridden with a halter, are so bomb proof you can fire a gun off their back, and you could eat a picnic sitting on them without spilling. Yet I've seen a couple of these horses meet the one thing they haven't run into before, the one thing that looks to them like the end of the world or a Zombie apocalypse. At that point, the most well trained horse and rider will do whatever the horse decides, because horses are not machines. I always say if people feel it is absolutely unacceptable for them to ever fall off a horse they should not ride. If you want absolute obedience, you need to use machines for transportation and not living animals.
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post #127 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 07:41 PM
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Riding a well trained horse that is on the bridle, listening to every cue is exceedingly hard to describe.

It is like balancing a car (non automatic) on a hill with the clutch and accelerator, to much clutch, it runs back, to much throttle and you go forward burning out the clutch.

It is, I would imagine, like a surfer riding that big wave.

The grace and elegance a horse can show giving the rider the elegance and beauty of being at one with that animal, knowing that a little more leg or seat will get a change of pace or direction with a balance that is second to non.

Doesn't matter if it is dressage English or western, it is training.

For me, trying to describe it is like trying to explain colour to a blind person.

To state that a rider of dressage doesn't bother about the front legs is such a misconception, if the horse has the power of the back end in full use the front end becomes light and allows for far more freedom of action in the front.

A horse that goes with most of its weight on the forehand is going to be jarring itself all the time. It is way more likely to end up with leg problems like ring and side bone, navicular or pedal osteitis than a horse that is balanced.
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post #128 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by quote
If you really need blind obedience you better just ride a motorcycle.
Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
If you want absolute obedience, you need to use machines for transportation and not living animals.
Besides being an insult to suggest that someone give up their horse, your suggestion is incorrect.

Accidents, recalls, mechanical failures, etc. would prohibit motorcycles and machines from "blind obedience".
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post #129 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 08:57 PM
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Gottatrot, I think you are confusing many things, I don't think anyone here believes their horse is any kind of blind dumb slave simply doing their bidding, unless it is a poster that I don't read. Any same sensible horse person knows that it is a partnership with a living breathing creature likely to overreact at any moment... Keeps it interesting

“Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity”
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post #130 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 09:13 PM
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Electric shock to the under belly? Really?

The yellow jacket story I wrote about early was all about a horse being repeatedly swarmed and stung by yellow jackets. My horse wanted to follow the that horse into the swarm. I would not allow it. Good thing because that other horse and the rider needed serious help after the attacking swarm.

Makes me mean I suppose?

Who says I have never fallen off? I have over the years, and I can say it was always rider error, or rider miscalculation over an obstacle.

I enjoy my horse. I enjoy his personality. I enjoy our partnership. I enjoy the miles we have ridden together. I enjoy and respect the things he has taught me over the years. I respect they way he makes me think outside of the box because he has pushed my past my comfort zone.

On the flip side, I have taught him a lot too, and I have pushed him past his comfort zone. If I hadn't we would still be on the wrong side of the road from the trails.

As for motorcycles them!.... But I prefer to be the very opinionated old lady on the back looking at the scenery as it passes by.
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