Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 14 - The Horse Forum
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post #131 of 177 Old 03-17-2016, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by updownrider View Post
Yep, look at these riders in competition. They don't need those "useless appendages".

I swear that one ostrich is wearing a pair of boots and some jeans!
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post #132 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 12:00 AM
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If you look at the lady in the pink tutu she is wearing sneakers and has her toe turned out. I believe that is the cue to ask an Ostrich to passage.
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post #133 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by updownrider View Post
If you look at the lady in the pink tutu she is wearing sneakers and has her toe turned out. I believe that is the cue to ask an Ostrich to passage.

what a monkey!
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post #134 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
I think people who believe their horses blindly obey them because they "respect" them as their leader or their "parent" have not tested that theory. Give your horse an electric shock to the underbelly or have a hornet sting them in the private parts and you can test your theory. You could also suddenly drop something that scrambles onto their head or set off a firework a foot ahead of them on the trail. Just don't allow them to spook or bolt, because otherwise that would mean they don't trust your leadership. Or perhaps they need more training.

Control is an illusion with horses, something I learned many years ago. Some people want to believe they have complete control over a well trained horse because it makes them feel safer. No one actually does, and I'm not talking about a horse slipping or tripping. A horse always retains a thinking brain, opinions and the ability to agree or disagree with a handler or rider. Some people only ride very agreeable horses so never fully understand that no matter how much training or experience a horse has, he remains his own person with the ability to make decisions.

I think people should know that every horse has a nemesis. You may have never met it, and maybe you never will. But I've been on horses that can be ridden with a halter, are so bomb proof you can fire a gun off their back, and you could eat a picnic sitting on them without spilling. Yet I've seen a couple of these horses meet the one thing they haven't run into before, the one thing that looks to them like the end of the world or a Zombie apocalypse. At that point, the most well trained horse and rider will do whatever the horse decides, because horses are not machines. I always say if people feel it is absolutely unacceptable for them to ever fall off a horse they should not ride. If you want absolute obedience, you need to use machines for transportation and not living animals.
You are playing Devil's advocate, from first asking how a horse would know when you allow him to decide a route, trail, work a cow ect, from when you are not giving him that decision making power, to extrapolating those of us that cue our horses between the two, then expect that horse to totally ignore any stimulus and blindly walk off a cliff or into a burning pit of fire!
It is not that we don't expect that horse to ever spook, but we do expect him not to spook and bolt, buck, ect
I can give you an example of that hornet scenario, where I don't expect my horse not to react, but I do hope to have the ingrained response to diffuse his natural flight reaction, or at least dampen it

I can give you several examples, and two occurred when Smilie was between 2 and 5, thus a jr horse.
One was a first short trail ride, at a friend's, who had an
arena, and property that backed onto forestry. The couple that owned the place, were in the lead, I was in the middle and my best friend was behind me.
Suddenly Smilie became tense, on the verge of bucking or bolting. My friend, riding behind yelled 'hornets"
The couple in front had stirred up a hornet's nest, hitting a log while crossing it
Smilie has enough body control and ingrained response to 'whoa', that it gave me enough time to check her head around and step off. Now, I don't know if any of those hornets managed to sting her privates, but she sure had a dozen or so stings!
Another time, I was riding her in a winter hay field,passing a stack of tarped square bales. As we passed, several bales came tumbling out from under that tarp, with a coyote leaping in their wake. Sure must have appeared as if a predator was attacking!
Smilie leaped forward in two or three big bounds, but again, stopped when I yelled, `whoa
I already gave the example where i played a bluff on a bull moose, and asked my gelding Einstein to charge him
Sure, there is always the chance that even with the best trained horse, you might meet his nemesis, where you can`t get him back to you , and he just blows, but that is entirely different then handing over leadership on demand, with the mindset that the horses instincts and limited reasoning powers always trumps our human thinking and knowledge.
I darn well know that the braying strange animal running towards us, up to a fenceline, is not some horse eating monster, and my horse has to trust my judgement on that,, and not try to `leave the country`!
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post #135 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I swear that one ostrich is wearing a pair of boots and some jeans!
Naw, he has front legs!
Looks like an up side down neck conformation works also!
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post #136 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 02:19 AM
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Here's someone who can respond much more eloquently than I can, describing the journey I am making from being boss to being friend to my horse. I'm more type B myself, but can be a perfectionist if I'm not careful.
From this blog:
A Cure for “Type-A-Control-Freak” Riders, presented by Horse Country Shoe Repair – Horse Junkies United
First, consider the horse. He is a majestic, elegant animal with a free spirit–intelligent, playful and spontaneous. He is nothing short of awe-inspiring. He canters over the earth with his muscles rippling and his tail flagged, drinking the wind like cool water. He has been the very image of freedom and beauty since the beginning of time.

Now consider the Type-A rider. Psychologist Saul McLeod writes, “Type A individuals tend to be very competitive and self-critical. They strive toward goals without feeling a sense of joy in their efforts or accomplishments. Inter-related with this is the presence of a significant life imbalance. This is characterized by a high work involvement. Type A individuals are easily ‘wound up’ and tend to overreact. They also tend to have high blood pressure (hypertension).”

“Type A personalities experience a constant sense of urgency: Type A people seem to be in a constant struggle against the clock. Often, they quickly become impatient with delays and unproductive time, schedule commitments too tightly, and try to do more than one thing at a time, such as reading while eating or watching television.”

And he continues, “Type A individuals tend to be easily aroused to anger or hostility, which they may or may not express overtly. Such individuals tend to see the worse in others, displaying anger, envy and a lack of compassion. When this behavior is expressed overtly (i.e. physical behavior) it generally involves aggression and possible bullying.”
That seems a little harsh. And gratuitous. Maybe even mean. As a recovering Type A individual, I notice a lot of us are impatiently attracted to horses. We crave synchronicity with this beautiful, ethereal animal. They do say opposites attract, but that’s just the beginning.

I’ll use myself as a bad example. I was 25 years old and showing my one-of-a-kind work in the best fine art jewelry gallery in the country–on 5th Avenue in NYC. And at home my baseboards were spotless.
Then I entered the twelve step program for recovery, meaning I bought a horse. He was a brilliant weanling who I could mold perfectly who would train me to exhale. Again and again, to the point of hyperventilating in the beginning.

There’s a word left out of that long-winded Type A definition; the one word hurts the most to admit: self-loathing. We push too hard to make up for our imperfections, yet we stay conscious of each one. We see them in our horses. A strategy to fake leadership can work to a point with some horses, if you are a big enough bully, or if art and beauty don’t matter to you. I was out of luck on both counts. On the bright side, I didn’t enjoy feeling like a loser either.

Type A riders like control a bit too much. Some of us control freaks micro-manage our horse’s nose into being afraid to take a breath–before we clear the mounting block. Type A’s and horses are kind of a perfect storm. The harder we try, the less we receive, the more we demand, the more resistant the horse becomes, the bigger the fight…but most of us internalize it stubbornly. Then if it’s a really bad day, a giggling kid rides by bareback and mocks all your work. But Type A’s are not quitters, so we double down.

Then, if we have a very good horse, he doubles down too, refusing to submit to soul-killing repetition and mind control. He requires equality, the thing we doubt most about ourselves.

We should have just gone to therapy in the first place because we can imagine a better way. We are haunted by beauty: some riders and horses have a synergy and together they ride just to the edge of control–and balance there, sharing perfection. There is brilliance in the art of the edge, but you have to give up some control to let the horse be there–you have to trust him. These are the moments that hook us forever because we become vulnerable partners. Our rules and restrictions fall away and in the moment, we are as authentic as a horse. It might happen doing flying changes in the arena or it might be picking a trail over uneven ground. It’s humbling to feel your horse rise up under you and offer himself.
And if you feel it once, just an instant, the addiction takes hold and we try to re-create it at all cost. That desire is our doom and for a time, things get worse by our own force of will. Instead, like a surfer waiting for the perfect wave, we have to stay open and be ready to go along.

Our intention is to make perfection, but perfection is already a horse’s natural state. Thinking that we need to micro-manage the horse is the ultimate vote of no trust. The more we hold our horse or correct the mistake before it happens, the more our horse loses confidence in his own ability. We damage their balance and rhythm but most of all, we stifle their personality and individuality. We end up damaging the traits we loved the most and progress is simply not possible–we are in our own way.
It takes a strange courage to un-control the outcome. Truth be told, Type A’s aren’t that into freedom and trust after all.

I’m lucky. My horses never had much tolerance for my intolerant ways. And since I was Type A, I controlled myself…to give them time to answer; time to be beautiful and intelligent. Hush. I had to quit nagging long enough to let him volunteer. Then I had to find my manners and let him know how I felt. It required honesty, in the moment, beyond external noise. I had to be real in order to progress.

The best reason to improve our riding is that it allows the horse to work his magic on us. The more we get out of his way, and let him carry himself, the more he gains the confidence to partner in our dance. Our riding should not limit the horse’s best qualities but rather, encourage the horse help us possess them also.

It’s a perfect plan: equine passion pulls us past the self-loathing part and then horses mentor us to wholeness. We can learn compassion where there used to be criticism, and baseboards be ****ed, so much more about ourselves to like.
This part describes what I feel is rather ideal:
"Some riders and horses have a synergy and together they ride just to the edge of control–and balance there, sharing perfection. There is brilliance in the art of the edge, but you have to give up some control to let the horse be there–you have to trust him. These are the moments that hook us forever because we become vulnerable partners. Our rules and restrictions fall away and in the moment, we are as authentic as a horse."
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post #137 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
Collection works on strength training - it builds fast twitch muscles.
Is anyone else disgusted by that pic?? & my be it didn't get that... entrophic just with weightlifting either...
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post #138 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 10:28 AM
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Well, I don't hold much stock in the Type A, Type B personality basket. I believe that most people are both depending on the circumstances. After all life has a lot of grey areas.

My house has been a construction zone for 14 years. Ladders everywhere, walls with some of the wallpaper stripped, sanders, molding laying around, expose lathe, buckets, three different paint swatches are on one wall, and 15 boxes of hard wood floor waiting to be installed.

If I was a true Type A person, it would have driven me into neurotic state 13 1/2 years ago. As I sit here in my renovation mess I say to myself, "it will get done when it gets done. It is a beautiful spring day, I'm going for a ride."

On the other hand an emergency with my kids, husband, or animals, and I can morph into a drill sergeant spewing orders so that the emergency at hand gets handled.

As for perfect harmony, I think that is what most of us are striving for with our horses, spouses, children, work life.

I received a compliment the other day. A trail riding friend said that we (my horse and I) have a really good thing. He said it was fun to watch us; to witness the give and take, the ting and the yang. That compliment beats out, your horse is so pretty, or you are a good rider. I'll take the synergy compliment over the others any day of the week.

Control? No one can control any situation. We can only control how we react to situations.
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post #139 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 10:31 AM
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First off, Type A and B is a theory and hardly a fact. Despite its wide acceptance into pop culture (which makes it easy for the lay person to relate to), since the 1950's when the theory was developed by two cardiologists, it has become necessary for psychologists to theoretically add the additional catagory of type C/D which is a hybrid of the two, because it is obvious that people are not either A or B but most often display behavioral characteristics of both catagories.

As someone with an advanced degree in Psychology(retired) , I would caution all to be careful in your use of labels when it comes to people. Most exercise that caution with horses and see them as individuals, so should it be when it comes to the human animal. As a matter of fact, people who always feel the need to catagorize objects, thoughts, animals and people into neat boxes in order to bring themslves emotional comfort, could be diagnosed as a form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, so again, caution into the realm you seek to enter!

Secondly, while the article adresses the pitfalls of Type A personalites, nothing is said to address the similar reagrding the Type B, so I will do so here.

It is often found that people who are Type B personalities are most often introverted and because life comes with extreme stress (such as the death of a loved one) when suddenly confronted with external pressures, the Type B is often emotionally unprepared to cope; therefore are more likely to manifest with ancillary stress related disorders such as hair pulling, cheek chewing, nail biting, though this can also be found with Type A's the behavior is manifested with different root causes. The type B when confronted with extreme and unavoidable stress, is also most likely to display a significant mental break, to the point of being unable to function daily, due to an inability to deal with extreme outside pressures.

While one of the pitfalls of a type A personality, is that they often derive very little joy or self-worth from even a significant accomplishment, the opposite most often found with type B personalities is that they derive too much joy and sense of self-worth from what might be only a minor success and place far too much vaue upon things of little consequence.

Type B's tend to blow little things out of proportion internally when others do not assign the same self-assigned importance to an accomplishment, point or thought, so consequently suffer both stress and agression, simply for different reasons and it manifests differently (Sullenness or sarcasm vs vociferous confrontation).

Type B's are unable to see the forest for the trees so to speak and if they do, pay it little relevance, choosing instead to focus on the individual tree, getting bogged down in the details preventing them from acting to reach a larger goal.

Because they tend to be unorganized and externally display a laid back attitude, they will often procrastinate to the point of causing inconvenience to those around them, sometimes this will lead to problems within a team environment because the work that others need to do their own work, often does not get done. They are quite often late, which will come across to others as valuing their own time above that of other people.

Now if you are saying to yourself, I'm a little bit of this and that, you would be correct. Nature seeks equilibrium and balance, therefore while we may lean slightly to one extreme or the other to varying degrees, most of us are still well balanced between extremes.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer

Last edited by Reiningcatsanddogs; 03-18-2016 at 10:52 AM.
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post #140 of 177 Old 03-18-2016, 10:55 AM
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Reiningcatsanddogs, thank you for that!
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