Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 16 - The Horse Forum
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post #151 of 177 Old 03-19-2016, 09:24 PM
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[QUOTE=Smilie;8802010]There are highly trained horses, just because they have been trained to that level, that are not beginner horses. In other words, you have to know how to ride them!

Many highly trained performance horses, are no more beginner horses then green horses, and your daughter was not ready to ride such a horse,e sp if she does such elementary incorrect things, as leaning forward, to ask a horse to trot or lope off.

Reiners are taught to run a fast circle also, by the rider leaning forward, running those loose reins up the horse's neck
Your example, proves nothing to me, except that you should not have put your daughter on a horse she was not skilled to ride
I am glad that she is okay though!

I have had people in the past, enquire if some well trained performance horse, that I had gamed and used in reining, was a beginner;s horse, and I would tell them no

You are expecting a horse to reason like a person,and horses just don't think like that. A highly trained horse, is going to respond to the cues that have , through training, been ingrained in him QUOTE]


This is why I will not allow her on Oliver anymore.

Considering that I put over 100 hours on Cowboy in the last two months without a problem, I considered him fairly well vetted for her, she can walk, trot and canter bareback, a most horses in a rope halter and lead rope, not a horrible seat by any means, perhaps not up to your standards, but who here is? Certainly not Moi and yet I ride him without issue. So which is it? I'm a crappy rider who you constantly find a need to take issue with or I do I know enough to manage a "highly trained performance horse" effectively?

Smilie, sometimes there is only so much you can do to figure things out before they happen! Your son was never dumped because of a mistake he made I suppose? Maybe you shouldn't have had him on that horse to begin with!

Of course my example would prove nothing to you because you refuse consider that in some cases "absolute obedience" is detrimental. This because someone you have disagreed with on this thread has raised that point, even though you yourself have given examples where by your own horses are not absolutists and have been capable of putting 2+2 together for themselves. Your examples count to prove the exact point I am making.

Of course horses do not think like humans! But, since I (believe) that I am talking to a human in communicating with you and the others on this board, I use human terms.

Horses are great associative learners and a "normal" horse, unless it has been trained out of him to the extreme, will learn when certain things are an actual cue and when as BSMS has put it on several occasions, he is simply scratching his own butt. Or do you agree with his perception that one should not create a sensitive horse because they cannot learn to differentiate?
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post #152 of 177 Old 03-19-2016, 10:20 PM
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No intention tot offend!
My sole point is that just because a horse is highly trained, does not make him a horse anyone can ride, and in cases, just the opposite
Anyone who has ridden a lot of horses,and trained them, has come off-also not my point, nor is such a person a poor rider, in fact, quite the opposite!
I certainly came off lots, either with the horse going down with me, or by being launched,and yes, some was my own fault.
My point was, horses learned by repetition, and by responding to consistent cues in the same manner.
If they instead reasoned , 'the rider really did not wish to cue me into a fast gallop, so today I will ignore that request, that would be expecting reasoning ability way beyond their capability.
A horse is expected to run a dry reining pattern, in working cowhorse, even with no cow in that pen, stopping just as hard, as he would turning that cow on the fence in the fence work
I am sure that dry pattern makes no sense to him, but he has been trained to obey those cues.
The more horses your daughter rides, the better rider she will become, and the more moments you will be left holding your breath at times, as I know that from experience.
When my son started showing, he rode horses that he trained, as I had him help me start colts when he turned 13. He showed against kids with ready made show horses. Yes, he was beat many times , esp in the beginning, but it also made him the good rider and colt starter that he is today
Thus, I am not Knocking your daughter's riding, just the expectation that a horse trained to blast out of that box, , using the cues your daughter gave him, is going to respond according to his training, and not through some deductive reasoning
I jumped on my old reining mare, one year, bareback. She had been a broodmare for many years, and I had been riding more pleasure bred horses. I accidently cued her for a spin, and, yes, she lost me.
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post #153 of 177 Old 03-19-2016, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
No intention tot offend!
My sole point is that just because a horse is highly trained, does not make him a horse anyone can ride, and in cases, just the opposite
Anyone who has ridden a lot of horses,and trained them, has come off-also not my point, nor is such a person a poor rider, in fact, quite the opposite!
I certainly came off lots, either with the horse going down with me, or by being launched,and yes, some was my own fault.
My point was, horses learned by repetition, and by responding to consistent cues in the same manner.
If they instead reasoned , 'the rider really did not wish to cue me into a fast gallop, so today I will ignore that request, that would be expecting reasoning ability way beyond their capability.
A horse is expected to run a dry reining pattern, in working cowhorse, even with no cow in that pen, stopping just as hard, as he would turning that cow on the fence in the fence work
I am sure that dry pattern makes no sense to him, but he has been trained to obey those cues.
The more horses your daughter rides, the better rider she will become, and the more moments you will be left holding your breath at times, as I know that from experience.
When my son started showing, he rode horses that he trained, as I had him help me start colts when he turned 13. He showed against kids with ready made show horses. Yes, he was beat many times , esp in the beginning, but it also made him the good rider and colt starter that he is today
Thus, I am not Knocking your daughter's riding, just the expectation that a horse trained to blast out of that box, , using the cues your daughter gave him, is going to respond according to his training, and not through some deductive reasoning
I jumped on my old reining mare, one year, bareback. She had been a broodmare for many years, and I had been riding more pleasure bred horses. I accidently cued her for a spin, and, yes, she lost me.
And my point is that a horse that never engages his mind outside of his training because he is indeed "blind" from a mental standpoint (in Cowboy's case, do it immediately or you are getting a beating), can be a problem as much as the spoiled horse who ignores his training because he prefers to be a free thinker and the rider allows it. They are two extremes and the point of my post was to demonstrate that extremes are never good. Each side was concentrating on an image in their mind of extremes and therefore could not see that they actually were on different ends of the spectrum on the middle ground.

I was defending your point of view as much as Gottatrot's but rather than leaving well enough alone and accepting compromise, you decide to tell me that she has no business being on that horse. Funny, I thought she was ready as did her trainer, who has actually ridden this horse and been watching her ride for the last five years. Sorry, the kid made an error, she was caught off gaurd, was relaxed and got sloppy, she paid a price for it, she learned from it and will not be likely to repeat it again. That is what happens when you ride and we all pray that the next mistake we make isn't our last, but most of us live to ride another day, albeit sometimes battered and bruised.
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Last edited by Reiningcatsanddogs; 03-19-2016 at 11:35 PM.
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post #154 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 02:57 AM
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Your trainer was there, you know the history of the horse, so if your trainer thought she was ready to ride the horse, I am certainly in no position to argue.
We all make judgement calls, and horses are living breathing entities
Anyone that rides, knows there is risk in riding
I am not blind enough, nor do I believe there ever is a truly 'bomb proof ' horse
At the same time, that horse should also have had an ingrained 'whoa' and some 'rate', as needed when that horse has to suddenly stop, when that calf is roped
It could well have been a combo of that horse's past conditioned training, and long time off.
I never said that any horse is ever going to be completely push button, or blindly obeying that rider at all times, nor would I even want such a horse, a horse that would walk off a cliff, if asked to!
Horses also carry baggage from the past, never completely eliminated by re-training, nor is that horse ever the same, far as a horse with a clean slate for a mind, that never had that experience/training
Long time ago, when first starting to breed horses, I bought an Appaloosa mare off the track. She was TB/ runningApp cross, and must have had some bad experience at the track, as she would rear, go over backwards and halter pull
I got that halter pulling fixed, and she no longer reared under saddle, just riding out, and I had some very decent long mountain trail rides on her
However, if some horse passed her at speed, she would be back in starting gate mode, and if I tried to hold her back, would go up.
I became very particular as to who I rode with, and moved on to another horse, letting Annie raise some very nice babies. Nothing wrong with her disposition, but that bad experience on the track, made her into a horse that I would not ride today.
Why is it so surprising, that an animal who reacts naturally as a flight animal, as in a true fear spook, would also act instinctively to ingrained training?
He is neither thinking, when he spooks suddenly, nor when he instinctively responds to some ingrained training cue, but is on auto pilot.
Hopefully, the training we have on him, can bring him back, so he does not bolt after that spook, or tries to buck us off, or that after he instinctively reacts to that cue, he also responds to our re direction
A horse that does not argue with you, as to where he will or will not lead or ride, is not a horse that is 'bomb proof', as that is a mythical creature!
However, when such a horse strongly resists your direction, you take notice, as that horse not not very likely to be calling 'wolf'
If I'm riding in Grizzly bear country, and my horse is suspicious, riding through willows, esp with signs of fresh bear digging, better believe I try to ride around that area, make sure I have a clear view, or turn back.
(having hubby along, packing a gun helps also! )
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post #155 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
A horse that does not argue with you, as to where he will or will not lead or ride, is not a horse that is 'bomb proof', as that is a mythical creature!
However, when such a horse strongly resists your direction, you take notice, as that horse not not very likely to be calling 'wolf'
If I'm riding in Grizzly bear country, and my horse is suspicious, riding through willows, esp with signs of fresh bear digging, better believe I try to ride around that area, make sure I have a clear view, or turn back.
(having hubby along, packing a gun helps also! )

Smile, that is what Gottatrot was essentially saying, that along with obedience, you must also listen to the horse. The two of you were in agreement generally she was just expressing it differently.

“You spend your whole life with horses and just about the time you think you have them figured out, a horse comes along that tells you otherwise.” –quote from my very wizened trainer


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post #156 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 12:28 PM
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there you go, discussions, even ones that are lively, prove that horse people really think more the same then have vastly different beliefs!
We often just have to talk at length, to come to that conclusion!
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post #157 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 01:42 PM
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It is unfortunate though that in order for one person to see that several other persons expressions of similar thoughts is not garbage, it needs to be pointed out by quoting that the one person has said the same thing.

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post #158 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
It is unfortunate though that in order for one person to see that several other persons expressions of similar thoughts is not garbage, it needs to be pointed out by quoting that the one person has said the same thing.
Well, there were nuances of differences, so it is not really so black and white
There is a difference, in taking the horse's natural instincts into account, when you yourself are not sure of a situation, and letting that horse seize control, refusing to go where you tell him it is safe.
Using those willows , as an example. There are times a strong wind causes those willows beside a trail to really weave back and forth, and where you know no predator is lurking ( I can go into detail how one knows that, riding in the mountains , if anyone wished to know), but your horse wishes to whirl around ect. It is then i need that leadership and trust, to have my horse over ride his natural instincts, and ride forward
Same goes if my horse freaks out, seeing sheep for the first time, and he is not sure if they are a threat. I have to be able to have that trust and leadership, so he believes me, and does not try to bolt.
Horses don't really reason, but rather react on senses that are very acute, due to the very nature of being a flight and prey species. This causes them to react first, get to a safe distance, then assess the situation
In fact,, when a horse gets scared or tense, he learns very little. he is not in thinking mode, but rather flight mode.
Thus, there is a very fine line, when you allow a horse input, and that horse disregarding your leadership, taking control.
The horse reacting automatically to a cue, is reacting much as he would to anything he natural responds to, out of instincts. The good thing is, if that horse is well trained, does not come with past garbage, he also will respond to a cue that over rides/replaces the first accidental incorrect one, instead of taking control, in essence, bolting.
Reiners are chased into a fast circle on a loose rein, but they are running in control, and if the rider sits back, drops that hand, will come back down to a slow circle, or with further body language-stop.
On the other hand, when a horse stops thinking, tunes the rider out, he basically forgets anyone is on his back
I want a horse that rides where i ask him to, with the caveat that I know I am not asking him to do something that is not safe. I don't want him thinking the bridge up ahead is not safe, and acting on that assumption
That is a big difference from not knowing myself if a bog crossing is safe,and asking my horse to blindly cross it, have him sink in it, and thus destroy his trust in my judgement, from asking him to go through a mud hole, where he can't see bottom, but where I know there is a good base.
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post #159 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 02:56 PM
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I always read gottatrot's post in the light of letting your horse discuss your every decision. I went back and read them again, and still get that vibe due to her responses to my posts. It could be I am still reading them wrong, and it was not the intent of the post to make me feel as if I should not own a horse.

I gave specific true stories of when I shut my gelding's decision making down. The yellow jacket story, and the not wanting to cross the road. I also gave scenarios of when I let him make the decisions for I feel his natural instincts haven't been dulled due to evolution as the human's have.

It could be my hackles were raised after giving these examples and I was basically told I shouldn't own a horse, but that a motorcycle would suit me better.

I do not want a blindly obedient horse, nor do I want a horse that blindly follows his instincts.
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post #160 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Well, there were nuances of differences, ...
Yes, there are nuances of differences, and what I felt from all who posted is that they all felt that way from the beginning of the thread. And before.

I am not qualified in experience, skill, wisdom, education ... really not in any way to advise anyone here.

I try to deal with the horse that is in front of me.

And do not feel that that is a black and white scenario, but rather that it depends on the situation, conditions, emotions ... (ie nuances) of the moment.

And so I am in agreement with you, and with the others. :)

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