Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 17 - The Horse Forum
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post #161 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 07:48 PM
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Hi. I don't really use collection AT ALL! I hate it personally but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that as long as you are using the most comfortable and least dangerous/easiest way of riding for YOUR HORSE then there is no problem. It becomes a problem when people do it for no reason which many people on here seem not to do, which is good! I ride with soft but with contact hands (does that make sense?) and I do use side reins, but only because she is a 14.2hh feisty Connie, with a hard mouth! (She came that way, we don't really know what happened there :(), so...

Anyway... to answer your question, we do it to keep the ponies happy in the long-run, even though it can be strenous at the beginning. But the top human racers wouldn't have got anywhere without a bit of hard work so why not???

Last edited by TaMMa89; 03-22-2016 at 08:06 AM.
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post #162 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I always read gottatrot's post in the light of letting your horse discuss your every decision. I went back and read them again, and still get that vibe due to her responses to my posts. It could be I am still reading them wrong, and it was not the intent of the post to make me feel as if I should not own a horse.
I wasn't sure why you took the machine/motorcycle comment to mean yourself personally, I still feel anyone (not anyone in particular who has posted) who has no room in their thinking beyond a blind response to a cue from a horse does not have the compassion to ride a living, breathing creature. That's because I've ridden a few of these horses that will respond "no matter what" and their personality has been shut down while they have a deeply rooted anxiety about expressing an opinion to the rider.

If a horse discussed every decision with a rider, we could not ride them. Horses are agreeable, and after they learn cues they mostly agree with what we are asking. However, I believe we ask a question and the horse answers. Will you turn right? Yes I will. Will you back up? Yes I will. Sometimes the horse says no. Then you can either figure out why the horse says no (does he understand the cue? am I asking in a different way than I usually do? have I missed the fact that I'm asking him to back into a giant hole?) or you can just try to force the horse to obey right now. If you know the horse, you can use your brain to decide quickly what is going on. You might know he's questioning if you're going to make him do it, so you might cue again. If the horse always agrees with you, you should see what makes this time different. That is what a horseman would do.

I have ridden horses trained by people who believe horses should be "yes" men and I've ridden with people like this. They have no tact and do not listen to their horses. The horses often suffer because they will comply until they are absolutely unable to, and if that makes the situation turn bad the horse is abandoned or put down.

But I've also ridden with people who equate the amount or type of training with how compliant a horse is. Which I believe is another fallacy because there are highly trained horses that are brilliant, stubborn, and often non-compliant. There are also horses with very little training that are willing, sweet and will try to do anything and everything they are asked to do. These horses can appear as if they've had lots of training, because they try so hard to figure out what is being asked and will fill in any missing details.

Now many people say this or that type of horse is one they like to ride, and this or that type of horse is one they would avoid. That is fine, but if a certain type of horse will turn away from a nest of bees when asked or head into a spooky patch of ground just because they have been trained well and are agreeable types, that doesn't mean all well trained horses would do so.

That is my main issue...because of the people I meet in the real world who believe so strongly in the idea that training and leadership will turn any horse into an obedient child who will override his instincts when asked and comply. Which as Smilie said, past experiences and training will affect the horse's responses, and from what I've learned of horses, so will the innate ability of the horse to control their emotions and physical responses to fear versus going into a more instinctual state.

And why I have an issue with this is that multiple good horses are discarded and people think there is something at fault with the horse. The horse may not be right for that person, but the horse gets a label that often follows throughout an area. I've seen horses at barns where I've been that have been put down because one person thought the horse should have been trained better and the horse behaved on instinct.

I've seen many more horses sold on, but more often I've seen the horse just sit, abandoned while the owner no longer provides the vet care and good diet they did prior to losing faith in the horse. Plus it often takes quite some time as people spread the word the horse is "crazy" or "unridable" before someone actually tries the horse out and finds that the horse is sound of mind and well trained, but the owner had no room in their mind for the horse to behave like a prey animal and react on instinct.
Again, not saying this is what I'm hearing from people posting here and now. But as to why I believe horses are not going to behave like machines, and why I agree with Smilie that any horse can "lose it" sometimes. I've also read that more people are injured by well trained and mellow horses than are injured by horses with less training that are perceived as more dangerous. I believe that is because many people believe too much in a horse's training and are less careful than they would be with a less well trained or hot blooded horse.
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post #163 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gottatrot
I've also read that more people are injured by well trained and mellow horses than are injured by horses with less training that are perceived as more dangerous. I believe that is because many people believe too much in a horse's training and are less careful than they would be with a less well trained or hot blooded horse.
I don't agree with you on this point. Many people on a well trained horse typically are doing more dangerous things such as jumping over higher fences, or riding cross country at a greater speed.
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post #164 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustyisace View Post
Hi. I don't really use collection AT ALL! I hate it personally but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that as long as you are using the most comfortable and least dangerous/easiest way of riding for YOUR HORSE then there is no problem. It becomes a problem when people do it for no reason which many people on here seem not to do, which is good! I ride with soft but with contact hands (does that make sense?) and I do use side reins, but only because she is a 14.2hh feisty Connie, with a hard mouth! (She came that way, we don't really know what happened there :() and I am only 13, so...

Anyway... to answer your question, we do it to keep the ponies happy in the long-run, even though it can be strenous at the beginning. But the top human racers wouldn't have got anywhere without a bit of hard work so why not???
I could understand not wanting to do it, but are you exaggerating when you say hate? Or do you honestly hate collection; and why?
I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't understand the reasoning for hating collection...
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post #165 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:35 PM
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There were several reasons.

But all is in the past. It is just the Internet.
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post #166 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustyisace View Post
Hi. I don't really use collection AT ALL! I hate it personally but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that as long as you are using the most comfortable and least dangerous/easiest way of riding for YOUR HORSE then there is no problem. It becomes a problem when people do it for no reason which many people on here seem not to do, which is good! I ride with soft but with contact hands (does that make sense?) and I do use side reins, but only because she is a 14.2hh feisty Connie, with a hard mouth! (She came that way, we don't really know what happened there :() and I am only 13, so...
You HATE collection? What a very weird statement, what do you do with your horse? When you say you do you side reins, when you are riding or when?

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post #167 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:49 PM
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You HATE collection? What a very weird statement, what do you do with your horse? When you say you do you side reins, when you are riding or when?
That one threw me for a loop too.
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post #168 of 177 Old 03-20-2016, 09:51 PM
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I don't agree with you on this point. Many people on a well trained horse typically are doing more dangerous things such as jumping over higher fences, or riding cross country at a greater speed.
I have to agree with updown on this.

Could it be possible that more people are injured on a well trained horse, because the rider is over horsed?
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post #169 of 177 Old 03-21-2016, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by updownrider View Post
I don't agree with you on this point. Many people on a well trained horse typically are doing more dangerous things such as jumping over higher fences, or riding cross country at a greater speed.
There is also the fact that people take short cuts working with well trained horses, and even use some un safe handling/riding techniques, that they would not, on a green horse, plus you will also find more inexperienced horse people on these horses, that can ride that horse just fine, but are not prepared to ride that horse through something when he is less then fully co -operative
A prime example I often come across, is someone not that experienced with mares , buy one , because when not in heat, mares are much like a gelding They then are totally ill equipped to handle that mare when she is under the influence of hormones.
There was a good article on this subject, once in Horse and Rider,with examples of how people were hurt in freak accidents, by horses they trusted, doing something they would not have done on a green or unfamiliar horse
I was almost 'nailed' once, by my well broke reining mare, doing something stupid
I was showing both her and ajr horse, thus left her tied to the trailer, while I showed the jr horse. I was then in a hurry to do atack change, thus rushed around one side of the trailer,to the side she was tied on, without any warning.
Well, she had been sleeping, woke with a start, and let both hind feet fly, before she realized it was me. I would never have rushed around that trailer like that, if I had a green horse tied there!
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post #170 of 177 Old 03-21-2016, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I have to agree with updown on this.

Could it be possible that more people are injured on a well trained horse, because the rider is over horsed?
Yes, and because many beginning riders have these horses, and do just fine with them, as long as they don't do something they usually don't, thus are not prepared to ride a hard spook, a balk that escalates, ect
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