Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
Wanted to like this again.
And again.
And again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
Agreed, I would like it again and again if allowed
I agree, too, but but I want to address some things bsms said.

"Round" is acceptable horse terminology and this is a horse board. There should not be arguments every time the word is mentioned. The FEI uses the term round and you have used the FEI for other definitions. You can't use the FEI as a reference for one term then renounce its use of a term for another.

All sports use their own terminology. I wouldn't argue a "shoe string" catch in baseball because the catch didn't actually touch the shoe strings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms
The "Slinky Theory" is also referred to, by dressage enthusiasts, as the "circle of energy"
In my 50+ years of riding I have never heard the term "slinky theory". The link you copied and pasted from some text does not say "slinky theory". Can you post an actual link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsm
We're talking mechanics here, jaydee. Not feelings. How does the horse actually ACCOMPLISH what you enjoy feeling? It is a mechanical process, not imagery.
Rider's understand the word elastic, for instance, we keep our arms elastic. Another term, rubber band, is a term that is known in riding. Here is Robert Dover schooling Catherine Haddad using Robert's rubber band theory. I watch this demo and I can feel what Robert is asking Catherine to accomplish. Because I have ridden horses and not only read books. You have no desire to learn, feel or practice dressage and that is okay. But please stop arguing with those of us that do appreciate the feeling, look, and have the desire to learn more.
Robert Dover’s Rubber Band Exercise – Horse Junkies United


Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms
No rider "collects a horse", unless they are referring to buying horses. A horse is trained to collect himself in response to a cue. The rider cues. The horse responds with the motion he has learned.
With this logic, it means I am not a driver or driving when I am in my car. I am only giving cues that the car was designed to react to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms
What is true of stopping is true of collection. You ask a horse to collect (if you desire it). The horse, if trained and willing, collects himself. Frankly, anyone who disputes that does not understand dressage, regardless of how high they compete.

This video uses the word round (an acceptable horse term) and describes round. This is not science, this is horses (we are on a horse board). It also demonstrates "hollow", another term that may have another definition than you are used to but is acceptable horse terminology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8cOq7YWXys

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms
It goes back to an argument (or discussion) on a previous thread, where people told a lady she could not ever become a good rider unless she took dressage lessons.
I never could find that exact quote when someone told the OP she would "not become a good rider without dressage lessons". I have searched this thread again and several said it would give a good foundation or basics or be helpful, but you are the only one that mentioned “good rider”. Not even the OP.
https://www.horseforum.com/english-ri...-658297/page4/


I want to point out that I used the quote function. It is as easy as using the italic function, but it is the proper way to quote another poster's words. It makes it easier to know who wrote the original words and to follow the discussion.

To put the original author's name in the quote if you are cutting and pasting text and using the Quote function: After the first E in the word QUOTE place the = like this [quote= Then the username like this [QUOTE=username before the close ] bracket.

To end:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms
With Mia, the most certain way to end a bolt was to relax and call her name softly. When an ear flicked back, ask lightly with the reins and she would stop. Before the ear flicked back, she was bolting and I wasn't going to stop her.
Mia was not truly bolting if you could whisper in her ear and she stopped. Why? Because I believe a truly bolting horse is in a blind panic. You will find a lot of experienced horseman that agree with me. But do I argue with you every time you have told stories of Mia bolting? No, but I could. See how it goes? You have your definition of bolting which I vehemently disagree with and I have mine. But I do not derail every discussion you have when you mention Mia's bolting.

updownrider out.

Last edited by TaMMa89; 03-15-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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post #42 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by updownrider View Post

Mia was not truly bolting if you could whisper in her ear and she stopped. Why? Because I believe a truly bolting horse is in a blind panic. You will find a lot of experienced horseman that agree with me. But do I argue with you every time you have told stories of Mia bolting? No, but I could. See how it goes? You have your definition of bolting which I vehemently disagree with and I have mine. But I do not derail every discussion you have when you mention Mia's bolting.

updownrider out.
Oh WOW.......that is one for the books, sorry first time I have seen it and am totally floored. A true bolt, and I have experienced a few in the past, the horse is beyond any thing that can be stopped with a whisper, the horse is beyond talking, light aids, heavy aids, you are astride an unguided fast moving missile, praying that you can re establish some sort of contact before you get killed, it is truly the most scary feeling in the world.

See and this once again highlights the issues, if you believe a bolter can be stopped by a whisper, you have not ridden, and simply do not understand what a bolt is. Just the same as you have not felt, cannot appreciate what people are talking about terms like rounding, softness and connection, you THINK you know what it means, because you have read about it, but reading just does not do it..

Lets try this, my first visit to US, many many years ago, we ended up in Vegas, debating if we should go to the Grand Canyon, and to be honest I wasn't keen, I had read about it, seen pictures, watched TV programs, and though "Huh, a big canyon, walls miles apart, how exciting can that be. Fortunately DH over ruled me, and off we went. I will never, ever to the end of my days forget the feeling that I had when I walked to the edge and saw the Canyon for the first time....NEVER. All the reading, looking at pics, everything just had not prepared me for the first real glimpse.

That to me is the difference actual feeling, rather than reading about it.
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post #43 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
Oh WOW.......that is one for the books, sorry first time I have seen it and am totally floored. A true bolt, and I have experienced a few in the past, the horse is beyond any thing that can be stopped with a whisper, the horse is beyond talking, light aids, heavy aids, you are astride an unguided fast moving missile, praying that you can re establish some sort of contact before you get killed, it is truly the most scary feeling in the world.

See and this once again highlights the issues, if you believe a bolter can be stopped by a whisper, you have not ridden, and simply do not understand what a bolt is. Just the same as you have not felt, cannot appreciate what people are talking about terms like rounding, softness and connection, you THINK you know what it means, because you have read about it, but reading just does not do it..

Lets try this, my first visit to US, many many years ago, we ended up in Vegas, debating if we should go to the Grand Canyon, and to be honest I wasn't keen, I had read about it, seen pictures, watched TV programs, and though "Huh, a big canyon, walls miles apart, how exciting can that be. Fortunately DH over ruled me, and off we went. I will never, ever to the end of my days forget the feeling that I had when I walked to the edge and saw the Canyon for the first time....NEVER. All the reading, looking at pics, everything just had not prepared me for the first real glimpse.

That to me is the difference actual feeling, rather than reading about it.
I'm back in.

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post #44 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:48 PM
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[quote=updownrider;8778338]...To put the original author's name in the quote if you are cutting and pasting text and using the Quote function: After the first E in the word QUOTE place the = like this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Then the username like this [QUOTE=username before the close
bracket.

...Mia was not truly bolting if you could whisper in her ear and she stopped. Why? Because I believe a truly bolting horse is in a blind panic. ...

updownrider out.
1 - I don't care if you don't like my quoting people. Anyone who cannot figure it out will just have to live in confusion.

2 - You OBVIOUSLY missed the entire point of what I wrote about Mia, so I'll repeat it:

"I did more than enough bolts to learn the truth of what I read in a book on dressage: "No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse who has stopped bolting!"

With Mia, the most certain way to end a bolt was to relax and call her name softly. When an ear flicked back, ask lightly with the reins and she would stop. Before the ear flicked back, she was bolting and I wasn't going to stop her."

Please tell me how I could have made that ANY clearer. I even BOLDED a section for emphasis!

" if you believe a bolter can be stopped by a whisper, you have not ridden, and simply do not understand what a bolt is" - GH

MY understanding is fine. Yours is pretty far off. Please reread what I wrote, and the part I bolded, and explain how you got confused. Maybe it will help if I shout:

"No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse who has stopped bolting!...Before the ear flicked back, she was bolting and I wasn't going to stop her."

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #45 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:53 PM
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I have been bolted with.
After a few miles, I dropped my reins and just prayed.
It was the most scary, majorly traumatizing event of my adult life.
Whispers? Well, I did not pray screaming.

As for the rounding part - people, seriously? Are we still doing this? Those who are truly interested and open to learn will have already looked at all the links and videos - and done their conclusions.

Others will have not.

I have come a long way, to surrender my shadow to the shadow of my horse.
/James Wright/
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post #46 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:08 PM
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updownrider
Too often people become close minded, especially in the horse world. They believe their way is the only way and will not hear another's opinions/theories. And if one chooses to disagree, they can become nasty. I appreciated your maturity in your post. Too often I had experienced aggression at the hands of my 'horse elders' (trainers, teachers, and people with more years horse experience than I) especially when I did something differently than them or explored a new idea. Now I find myself often distant from other horse people because of the strife and conflict they most often bring. I enjoy spending time with less experienced horse people because they are open-minded and we can learn together and discuss and have differences in a friendly manner.

Bsms- To be honest, a couple weeks ago I might have totally been in agreement with everything you are saying. However, last week, I was blessed to have been able to experience for the first time ever, a horse truly working 'round' or 'over their back', and I was not with any trainer, dressage or otherwise, at the time. It feels very different from a nervous, tense, agitated, bucking, bolting, or rearing horse, which Lord knows I have felt all too often.
I took my mare for a workout session, which we began by riding her at a walk three times up and down a hill nearby. Then we went back to the arena and practiced some trot-halt-trot exercises in a 'working' frame (horse is on the vertical, not collected, and I have a normal steady contact). After a few of these, all of a sudden I felt her stop leaning on my hands as she had been and keep a nice light contact, and her back felt like it came up and begin to carry me as if I was riding a wave. I have never felt anything like it before, and I have ridden all sorts of horses (not high level dressage horses, mostly trail horses and gymkhana horses) in every gait, up and down mountains, walking, trotting, cantering, galloping, bolting, and bucking. Never have I ridden a horse that felt so light and gave me such joy to ride. I truly felt like I was in harmony with the horse.

We must remember that many of the dressage and other riders here recognize that we are training to develop the muscles along the topline and back, not trying to develop the spine itself, which is impossible of course you cannot 'work out' a bone.

And for the record, I have looked at pictures of endurance horses the past couple weeks and recently had the idea that if one were to combine endurance and dressage it would make an excellent fitness program for horse and rider.

"You can do something wrong for thirty years and call yourself experienced, you can do something right for a week and experience more than someone who spent thirty years doing the wrong thing." ~WhattaTroublemaker
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post #47 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:10 PM
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I posted again on this thread, today, after an HF moderator posted (today):

"bsms - the only way you will ever understand what it means for a horse to 'round its back muscles and 'lift its back' is for you to take dressage lessons to learn how to ask for it and then ride a horse that knows how to respond to those cues and is fit and trained to do it - and then ride one that isn't"

If someone - and an HF moderator at that - directly posts to me, then why should I not respond? Or is a post directed at me a discussion, while my response is an argument?

And if someone - or several - totally miss my point about bolters, which I have had drilled in to me: "No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse who has stopped bolting!", then why can I not point that confusion out? If they are going to say, "...you have not ridden, and simply do not understand what a bolt is. Just the same as you have not felt, cannot appreciate what people are talking about terms like rounding, softness and connection, you THINK you know what it means, because you have read about it, but reading just does not do it.."- and say it having first totally missed my point about bolters, let alone the facts about rounding, then a response is appropriate.

It IS possible for someone to have learned something about riding in seven years, and not to need seven decades. The mechanics of a horse can be understood by someone who has never ridden. Collection can be felt by anyone who has had a nervous horse collect under them. The idea that I should not discuss peak impact forces on a horse's front legs unless I take dressage lessons seems a bit odd to me. Unless a rider has been trampled, they know no more about peak impact forces on a horse's legs than I do - until I read the measurements taken with instruments.

We have a huge advantage over folks in the 1800s, and much of the 1900s, because we can measure things like "When does muscle X contract?", and "What is the horse's center of gravity while trotting up a 10% grade?" These provide an objective test of our theories. And some theories need revision based on new data...

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #48 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseluvr2524 View Post
, all of a sudden I felt her stop leaning on my hands as she had been and keep a nice light contact, and her back felt like it came up and begin to carry me as if I was riding a wave. I have never felt anything like it before, and I have ridden all sorts of horses (not high level dressage horses, mostly trail horses and gymkhana horses) in every gait, up and down mountains, walking, trotting, cantering, galloping, bolting, and bucking. Never have I ridden a horse that felt so light and gave me such joy to ride. I truly felt like I was in harmony with the horse.
.
Isn't that enough to make a person smile for days? Riding the wave, love it...


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post #49 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:31 PM
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Isn't that enough to make a person smile for days? Riding the wave, love it...
Kinda like good loving versus bad loving....one knows the difference. And what a difference it is.....

There is a bolt, which is longer than a half mile in my book. Been on one of those and I cowardly did a voluntary dismount resulting in a concussion and birdies flying around my head. Then there is the boot scootin' boogie that stops after a several yards.
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post #50 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:36 PM
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"Never have I ridden a horse that felt so light and gave me such joy to ride. I truly felt like I was in harmony with the horse."

Great! I'm glad it is working for you.

As Bandit has calmed, I've spent more time trotting him up hills, and have recently started working him in what I call "The Cones of Confusion" - a triangle pattern of cones, and I don't decide what way we will turn until we get there. We may go around outside them all, or enter, turn left or right, maybe a 360 or a 270 or maybe a 60 deg turn and back out. I don't decide until the last moment so my horse cannot anticipate, while the varying sizes and duration of turning means he sometimes works harder than others. And after a couple of turns, we go back across the arena and try again, because too many turns spoils the movement.

He is also trotting much smoother than before. Except for when he reverts to "racing mode" - he did 8-12 mile legs of relay races with a rider who was 30% or more of his body weight before I owned him - his trotting is the best it has ever been. Not show quality, but not an I-beam either.

Much of his improvement has come over the winter, where I've been lucky to get in 4 rides a month. But his problem when he arrived included having been shod in such a way that he used his left front leg at a 30-40 degree angle. After the shoes were pulled in June, he started learning how to walk without them. As late as October, the wear pattern on his hoof was 30 degrees off. By December, it was straight, front to back.

In his case, could it be that just being ABLE to use his leg freely, and now doing so while walking around the corral, has been enough to reset how he moves? It was in a book on dressage that I saw the argument that good riding restores to the horse how he would and could move without a rider. Hmmmm....

In any case, "strung out / collection" is not an either/or situation. They are extremes of movement, and a horse can fall anywhere on the scale in between. There are varying theories on how one gets better movement. For someone at MY level of riding, teaching the horse a frame and getting it used to it is not going to happen. But I can present the horse with challenges, such as hills and turns of varying sizes, and let the horse figure it out.

And he is.

If someone has the skill and desire to teach a higher level of collection, I'm fine with that. My objection has been that it is required for all horses, or that it results in a better balanced horse, or a horse with greater longevity, or that it results in a more "controlled" horse. One can have good control of a horse with slack reins. And a horse can raise its withers without a vertical face.

As for the OP's original comment, "Surely they would move collected on their own if it's better/more efficient/more comfortable?" (post #1), that is correct. Collection is not more efficient, and it does not make the horse more comfortable. It is only better if that is what the rider wants - and all of us ask the horse to do work for our enjoyment.

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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