Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 6 - The Horse Forum
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post #51 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
Kinda like good loving versus bad loving....one knows the difference. And what a difference it is.....
Oh yes indeed.....



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post #52 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:44 PM
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I do consider myself a student; a willing, wanting to learn, student of the horse.

Nothing more and nothing less.

I am a jack of all trades and a master of none.

We (my horse and me) ride dressage, ride dressage tests, are in the ribbons.

We do limited distance rides, we do well in those too.

We have started working cows, we will do well there too.

He is built like the grey dressage Arab gotottrot posted.

Maybe is build is what makes him good at the different things we try.
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Last edited by TaMMa89; 03-15-2016 at 11:10 AM.
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post #53 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:48 PM
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And for the record, I have looked at pictures of endurance horses the past couple weeks and recently had the idea that if one were to combine endurance and dressage it would make an excellent fitness program for horse and rider.
That depends...if you want to be competitive at either, probably not. It seems a simple concept to me having studied physiology, how different types of exercise train muscles differently. A marathon runner does not want to overdo heavy weight training.

Cross training is good up to a point, but at some point you begin working against yourself by underdeveloping things you need and overdeveloping things you don't. Perhaps not all of you have "experienced this" as athletes yourselves, or cross training horses, but too many sprinting type muscles interfere with endurance. Meaning, not what the horse was born with, but which muscles were developed through exercise. Which is why you don't see many eventers that are top level at dressage. It works out OK since the cross country portion requires both sprinting and endurance muscles, but a top level dressage horse is not going to do well with the endurance requirement.

Opinions are opinions, and everyone is entitled to have their own. We all can advise new people to either believe whatever they hear, or to question popular ideas such as "a horse must learn collection to better carry a rider," or "letting a horse move naturally with his neck up and nose out is detrimental to his long term soundness," and they can either believe their feelings or do some reading and find out which strategy has more horses that end up sound into mid-twenties and thirties.

I disagree that established terms must not be questioned because there are many established terms that are misleading at best and misled me in the past. "Soft in the face." "In proper frame." "Overbent." "Inverted." "Stretchy." "On the bit." There are also common terms that people find very offensive such as "Starfishing," and "Rollkur."

Also, everyone puts their own value on things and those are highly individualized. I have experienced well trained horses moving in a very collected manner but I don't find it the be all and end all of how a horse can feel, and that's my opinion. This seems to make some people say, "then you have not truly experienced it!" I feel the same way sometimes...how can people not feel that galloping on a very strong and fast horse, feeling those muscles so powerfully moving under your seat is not the be all and end all of riding? I try to get others to experience it, and even then some are like "nah." They find a short sprint around a barrel more exciting. Or they're terrified. No, it's thrilling! It's the best thing in the world! Don't you get it? You see my point.
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post #54 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:52 PM
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Gottatrot, my oldest's son's ex, shows Arabian Reiners, and went to Scottsdale
I also know of One Arabian that showed successfully on the NRHA circuit, and I know as well as anyone,t here are exceptions in every breed< BUT, when you look at what horses excel , you look at the majority of those horses the win, not on their breed circuit, but open level-upper limit.
AQHA and other stock horse breeds, to a lesser extent, dominate NRHA and NRCHA, even though there might be the odd Arabian that succeeds at that level
I can also show you Appaloosas, that won Grande Prix , show jumping, ect, but that does not change the fact that those disciplines are dominated by Warmbloods
The classic Arabian, has too level of a topline, and hock too far off the ground, to really excel at events that require a great deal of hind end engagement-at the lEVEL OF TOP OPEN COMPETITION, not on their breed circuit
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post #55 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:57 PM
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"If someone has the skill and desire to teach a higher level of collection, I'm fine with that. My objection has been that it is required for all horses, or that it results in a better balanced horse, or a horse with greater longevity, or that it results in a more "controlled" horse. One can have good control of a horse with slack reins. And a horse can raise its withers without a vertical face."

Of course its not required for all horses. I do believe it results in a more athletic, better balanced horse. The horse learns how to use himself more efficiently *when carrying a rider* and thereby extends his using life. Yes, one can have excellent control with slack reins. I have seen several bridleless dressage riders. Leaving dressage, you can look at all other sorts of disciplines such as reining and endurance. They have very good control.
Dressage for me, has very little to do with the horse's head and reins at all, especially being that I ride in a hackamore that does not give clear turning cues so I must ask using my seat and my legs. Dressage to me is about fitness and quick efficient light communication between horse and rider, thereby achieving a harmony of sorts. That and building proper muscle on my horse, in addition to the fact that I just love turning a horse into a better riding horse that is light and quick to respond, is why I practice dressage.
I disagree with much in modern dressage and prefer the old classical dressage style. Dressage has its roots in war. It was created as a method to produce a better and more responsive war horse.
I truly believe that trail riding/endurance riding is an extremely beneficial way to encourage a horse to develop proper muscle and get them in the habit of 'moving out'-not dragging or shuffling but picking up their legs and moving with impulsion. For this reason, I believe that many endurance horses could easily transition to dressage and excel at it.

"You can do something wrong for thirty years and call yourself experienced, you can do something right for a week and experience more than someone who spent thirty years doing the wrong thing." ~WhattaTroublemaker
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post #56 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 05:58 PM
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If someone - and an HF moderator at that
Be fair and ask yourself if that person was participating in the discussion in that post as a moderator or as a general user such as yourself. The way this board is set up, you have to allow moderators to be able to post in a discussion with questions and answers and not throw their status back in their face. It is not the first time you have done this.
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post #57 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:01 PM
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Smilie,

And that is a better explanation. It's a bit like "WP horses can't move out on the trail." Or "Quarter Horses can't do endurance." Rather biased and a broad blanket statement. Some WP horses can't move out due to their heavy musculature, and these are usually not the ones winning at the top levels, as you've pointed out, but ones with halter conformation that people use as WP horses at the local levels because they are easy to keep moving slow.
Arabs can't get their hind end underneath themselves? Rather biased and broad, most Arabs can but stock horses dominate stock horse disciplines based on their anatomy and warm bloods excel at grand prix dressage. And Arabs are best at endurance, with a few exceptions.
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post #58 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:07 PM
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Well, I just got back from riding some drill team patterns, with my western pl horse.
It is exactly what she needed, as she has had a phobia of horses coming up on her, passing close,or coming towards her, ever since she was run into-hard, in a warm up
She was a 'rock star', accepting the closeness of other horses, even those that freaked out some, once again trusting me in a crowded arena and traffic, so I really find all this fixation on roundness, technical going into muscles, ect, redundant.
When you horse is responsive, moves athletically, able to turn that cow,or whatever job asked of him ,that horse is broke, able to move in the collected form you ask him to, for a particular job, or to just ride out on a loose rein 'natural'
There is no need to compare collection desired in dressage to 'working off of the backend, for events like working cowhorse or reining, to see which conforms to some classical definition of collection, taken from those that never worked a cow but to actually ride horses, know what makes a great athlete in the event or discipline YOU wish to ride that horse in
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post #59 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:12 PM
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Also, everyone puts their own value on things and those are highly individualized. I have experienced well trained horses moving in a very collected manner but I don't find it the be all and end all of how a horse can feel, and that's my opinion. This seems to make some people say, "then you have not truly experienced it!" I feel the same way sometimes...how can people not feel that galloping on a very strong and fast horse, feeling those muscles so powerfully moving under your seat is not the be all and end all of riding? I try to get others to experience it, and even then some are like "nah." They find a short sprint around a barrel more exciting. Or they're terrified. No, it's thrilling! It's the best thing in the world! Don't you get it? You see my point.
There we go, you have experienced it, but it is not 'all that' for you but you know what is being spoken about.

A TB in full gallop out in the open is truly marvellous thing, as you sit balanced on top of this power house, mane flicking back in your face, it is exhilarating......the same horse in full bolt, is a whole 'nother feeling, bone jarring, terrifying, horrible.

To me for a while the best feeling in the world was jumping, that harnessing of energy, seeing a stride, soaring over, look for the next one, pure poetry.

Or riding a good reiner, so light, so powerful, practising stopping and rolling back put the biggest smile on my face for days, or the one ride on a really good WP horse, I can so see why people like that.

So many great moments that I have felt, in a career spanning decades, full of frustrations, bad riding poor communication, etc etc.

When we talk about frustrations though I have had more in the last couple of years trying to undo those bad years of self taught, badly ridden solo times. The thing is I am open to the fact that I have issues and I need to improve, I am open to the fact that dressage is giving me a whole bunch of new tools to use, and it is great when you can communicate in a way that just makes your horse ride better....

But I guess it is like trying to explain colour to a blind person, unless you get it, you wont get it..
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post #60 of 177 Old 03-13-2016, 06:29 PM
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Smilie,

And that is a better explanation. It's a bit like "WP horses can't move out on the trail." Or "Quarter Horses can't do endurance." Rather biased and a broad blanket statement. Some WP horses can't move out due to their heavy musculature, and these are usually not the ones winning at the top levels, as you've pointed out, but ones with halter conformation that people use as WP horses at the local levels because they are easy to keep moving slow.
Arabs can't get their hind end underneath themselves? Rather biased and broad, most Arabs can but stock horses dominate stock horse disciplines based on their anatomy and warm bloods excel at grand prix dressage. And Arabs are best at endurance, with a few exceptions.
You missed my point, and you have yet to tell me how that pleasure horse, you alluded to,in that other thread, was both bred and trained
You are also confusing western pl horses with halter horses, as a good western pleasure horse is not muscle bound

I am merely telling you that when you make a BROAD statement, far as what a particular breed excels in, you look at those top open venues,m which are open to all breeds, and then see as to which breeds dominate them

Arabians have dominated events like the Tevis cup, which doe snot mean other breeds don't do well in endurance, at some level

Look at NRHA, NRCHA, NRCHA, NBHA, and look at the breed and bloodlines that dominante those events, events open to all breeds, including Arabians
Those events apy money, and those trainers will ride any horse that can win at that level

Might be easy to keep a horse moving slow, but not so much slow and CORRECT. Far as halter horses, they tend to be hot. Ever ride a halter bred horse? Halter horses at upper end often don't have their minds tested under saddle, and I can give you just a few names, of halter horses, if bred to, create not a horse that wants to go slow, but one with 'no brains home.'
I should know, as when i started to raise horses, I made the mistake of breeding to some of those heavily advertized halter horses, including Crimson War, and a horse that was Goer bred
That Crimson War stud was anything but slow or calm, nor did he have sensible mind.One foal crop, and I had him gelded

What I am saying, many breeds and good individuals can be very versatile horses, esp in breeds like the Appaloosa and Paint, where books aren't closed, thus you have a great more variety in body type, thus natural ability in specific events.
Also, when you talk about versatility, you have to ask in what time frame, and against what competition
Every event has become tougher, and those all around horses of the past, could not compete against the specialists in those events today
Many good horses can do many events,at a certain level, and that is all many people want-a horse they can do many events with
On the othe rhand, you will never see that broad spectrum of versatility at upper end, because the event is more specialized and tougher
This creates a need for both the specialist and the good all around horse-neither is better then the other, but rather serves that particular rider's goals
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