Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 8 - The Horse Forum
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post #71 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post

If you want to know how a horse collects, and what it does, study that drawing. There is no "circle of energy". Horses are not kangaroos. They USE their front legs in collecting, which is why collection raises the peak impact on the front legs.
This is the article you have quoted more than once when you have mentioned the "circle of energy" and also used the "horses are not kangaroos" line.

This article is one in a series of articles about training problems with horses. It is NOT an article about how to ride dressage or how to do collection. It is an article on a targeted subject which in this case is a horse that is either heavy in the forehand or light in the forehand, and suggests a way to fix the issue. The problem with cutting and pasting specific text only is that it is often out of context and can manipulate the story you want to tell. Use the text to highlight your point, but please also post the link.

http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training..._the_Light.pdf
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post #72 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 11:26 AM
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BSMS, I was on a bolting horse, once, long time ago, having borrowed a horse that I was unaware of being a bolter
A true bolting horse, runs blindly and mindlessly. Great, if you have a wide open trail, and you can use the army pulley rein, to eventually stop that horse, hoping he does not trip before you achieve that goal!
In my case, there was a highway up ahead, and the horse sure was not going to check if traffic was coming!

I thus opted to try and make a driveway , at full gallop, slamming into a tree-which was preferable to a truck!
Since that time, I have been very diligent in getting the body control on a horse to "SHUT DOWN' any attempted bolt, way before that horse is running flat out, hoping for the best!
Yes, yes, BSMS, horses can perform collected type movements on their own, do flying lead changes on their own, do lead departures on their own, and even sliding stops. Our one stud did the latter all the time, racing in his pen, along one side of our driveway, from one end to the other, running straight at the fence, then sitting down and stopping at the last minute, sliding in that dirt or mud.
THat all has nothing to do with any of these maneuvers or collection while ridden.
While ridden, we ask the horse to perform them, with whatever refinement is needed, on cue only, and NOT to perform them unasked
When riding, I don't want to feel my horse coiled up, ready for action, taking control!
Perhaps you enjoy that unasked for spin and attempted bolt, or, a horse like I had, that was an excellent lead changer, and if he got on the 'muscle on a trail ride, and was held back, would become very collected, almost loping in place, doing every other stride flying lead changes,unasked, ready to explode.
Looked and felt impressive when i was 30, but would not feel good now!
Rode down one mountain, when he was still a stud, with him getting 'collected', focused on a mare, versus as to where he was placing his feet. Yup, I rode him down, but if I had to ride a horse like that now, there, I would get off and walk!
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post #73 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 01:43 PM
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There is a big difference to when a horse bolts and when it runs away and the rider doesn't know how to apply the brakes.

A bolting horse will rarely turn unless you have something like draw reins on that you can haul his head into his chest and I mean haul.

Many of the racehorses, and these were steeplechasers, old hook off with a rider on the gallops, the rider could not stop them and instead of working with the group it was with,mouldy probably overtake several others ahead. Never was this called bolting, it was called all sorts of things but the polite term was hooking off.

I learned to control strong ponies as a child. Many of the ponies were pony racing when I started and on the open beach wanted to go flat out. Leaning forward was never the way to go in keeping control, that to a racer means faster. I learned that swinging their head from side to side, not see sawing but swinging them out of their stride stopped them from reaching over drive.
When I went into racing I had difficulty in holding a couple of the horses, one was notorious for hooking off and dropping his rider, when he tried to go on the down slope, I reverted back to the swinging off balance.

It worked, that horse and I fought for supremacy every time we went on the gallops for about eight gallops. My arms after felt stretched twice their length amd I gripped with my knees so he didn't drop me. I wasn't frightened at all, just determined to hold him.

After two weeks of fast work, we came to the down slope and he just remained at the correct pace without me having to fight him. He had given up.

Stopping a horse that is hooking off is generally not difficult like many things, it is a knack.

When I was in my teens a TB Point to Pointer came in. We were not told that he bolted. The woman who was training him was riding her own horse and I was on the pointer. She had got off to collect her newspaper from the village shop and was remounting from the bank when Bosun suddenly whipped to the side and took off with me down the road. I couldn't get him to turn his head at all and believe me, I was hauling on one rein with both hands.
He never made the corner and we went straight through a rhododendron hedge, across an immaculate lawn through a large garden pond and only stopped hen he ran into th back of the stables head first.

I thought the Major would be furious about the hoof marks across his lawn but he wasn't. On the other hand Viv, his wife and horse trainer was furious when she arrived back telling me that I should never charge off when someone was mounting!

That horse bolted with her and after that he was put down because it was so dangerous.

That to my mind is bolting, the rest is just being run away with or hooked off with.
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post #74 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 02:54 PM
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The higher the level of collection you ask for the more weight is put on the horse's rear end - not on its front legs, collection starts from working the horse into your hand and not from pulling the horse towards you or allowing the horse to 'tunnel' and go downhill.
So you see a horse being trained for Grand prix level that's very light in front with the power coming from its quarters pushing the horse uphill not from its front legs pounding on the ground
And a good article that explains how the muscles work, how they affect the spine and why a horse needs good muscle tone to cope with the pressures of riding
Equine Back Mechanics Part 2: The spinal muscles, the thoracic sling, and exercises to help prevent back pain in the horse
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post #75 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
\
If you want to know how a horse collects, and what it does, study that drawing. There is no "circle of energy". Horses are not kangaroos. They USE their front legs in collecting, which is why collection raises the peak impact on the front legs.

"As for Bandit becoming collected when he is nervous, that is not collection. The nervousness would mean he had tension and with true collection there is no tension. He is just bunching himself up."

I respect you, foxhunter, but you are wrong. He does NOT bunch himself up. Bunch up is not collection. He raises his front end, while lowering the rear. Impeded power:
"When the horse tries to move at high speed without allowing for the possibility of sudden stopping, the backward resistance is limited to the amount of energy needed to prevent the horse from falling forward and down, i.e., from tripping. But, if the horse, because of the possibility of some unforeseen event, mores fearfully or cautiously (i.e., when he takes into account the need for suddenly stopping or for preventing a fall), then his mind will literally be torn between the two contradictory necessities. Nowhere other than in the High School movement called the "passage" is the phenomenon of "inhibited thrust" more obvious: while the thrust of the hind legs remains powerful, it is counteracted by an equally powerful hesitancy. And it is this combination which makes all the charm of this movement...

...horses in the wilderness will assume a collected posture, characterized by a constant "coiling under" of the pelvis and a high head carriage...

...Collection is, therefor, a posture which, without hampering his forward movement, allows the horse, if necessary, to check it immediately. For this body attitude, the horse has to permanently brace muscles which otherwise would only be braced occasionally, namely only in those movements when a deceleration occurs." - Jean-Claude Racinet, who also did the drawing above.
Horse DO collect on their own, and it DOES involve tension. Collection is hard work, and work, by definition, means muscles are being used. A muscle is used when it contracts. Tension. There is no collection without tension.

The fallacy is that only "dressage riders" on "trained horses" ever experience collection. It is a contradiction: People say that horses collect naturally, then deny that a person can experience that natural collection. One or the other: It is either a natural movement, extended and trained to be performed on cue, or it is not. And since I can watch my horses do it on their own, I conclude it IS a natural movement. They CAN do it on their own. They can collect without a bit.

What a shock! A horse can collect without pressure in its mouth, and still be collected.

But they do NOT "round", and "rounding" is a mental image - purely imaginary - that leads to bad riding.

I am not sure how the mental image of "rounding up" would lead to bad riding.

and yes, a horse can collect without pressure in its' mouth, but if we want him to collect when and where we want it to happen, we'll have to devise SOME way to signal our desire and insist on obediance. the bit helps.

and, using the term "bunching up" is just another horse term to describe a feeling. the horse, when tense or worried, does feel to be bunching up. he will tuck his tail, drop his hind quarters a bit, flex his hocks in order to drop his hind, and often step under himself, thus bringing his hind legs closer to his front legs.

IN FACT, part of the necessary actions to achieve collection are having the hing legs come closer to the fore. and yes, the front legs muscles must engage to provide that 'stop' action (what we dressage riders describe as keeping the energy from falling out the front)

HOWEVER, if the horse "engages" his hocks (means bends them and brings them further under his body) the horse can transfer some of his weight backward off of the front legs.

also, it's not just how much weight in on the legs, but how softly the hrose carries that weight by using MUSCLES in his shoulders, neck, abdomin, etc to absorb impact through muscle tension. the weight of the horse is the weight of the hrose. but it can either go jolting through his body (where in the muslces do not flex, relax, flex to absorb it) and into the rider's body (jolt!!!) OR . . .

the horse can engage those same muscles, flex those hocks to become a bit like shock absorbers, and thus the energy that the rider feels is more wave like, and less jack hammer like.

which would you prefer?
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post #76 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 03:10 PM
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Why not start a thread on bolting?
I'm sure the Op by now has left this thread
Yes, I have also been to clinics where that back and forth of the head and neck, was used in a run down to a stop, to keep a horse from bracing, helping keep the horse soft in front, but where is all this going, far as the original post????
I'm pretty happy, and not a bit ashamed that I trained horses, after I got the knowledge, so that they never learned to bolt in the first place, or even to take hold and run on the bit.
Power to those that ride those type of problem horses, but the OP is better served learning how to defuse a bolt, and never go there in the first place, then to 'cowboy up and ride it out!
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post #77 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Smilie
Power to those that ride those type of problem horses, but the OP is better served learning how to defuse a bolt, and never go there in the first place, then to 'cowboy up and ride it out!
Smilie, I'm confused. The OP never asked about bolting.
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post #78 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
I'm pretty happy, and not a bit ashamed that I trained horses, after I got the knowledge, so that they never learned to bolt in the first place, or even to take hold and run on the bit.
OK I get the training not to take hold and run, but again a true bolt I simply don't think you can train not to happen, it is like something breaks in their brain, and they just lose it. Now maybe training will help that trigger point not to be reached, but you never know until it happens why it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by updownrider View Post
Smilie, I'm confused. The OP never asked about bolting.
Ah the beauty of thread drift...
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post #79 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 04:11 PM
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did I not say there would be a can of worms? they are getting loose and wandering all over the place now.
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post #80 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 04:50 PM
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Any fishing fans out there? They could collect up the stray worms for bait before they escape in a blind bolt.

Now that IS an interesting image.
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