Collection vs natural horse movement - why would horses not choose collection? - Page 9 - The Horse Forum
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post #81 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
There is a big difference to when a horse bolts and when it runs away and the rider doesn't know how to apply the brakes.
...I learned that swinging their head from side to side, not see sawing but swinging them out of their stride stopped them from reaching over drive.
When I went into racing I had difficulty in holding a couple of the horses, one was notorious for hooking off and dropping his rider, when he tried to go on the down slope, I reverted back to the swinging off balance...
Stopping a horse that is hooking off is generally not difficult like many things, it is a knack.
I kind of like the worm trails.

I have been writing in my journal about my horse that has learned to evade being swung out of her stride when she wants to go fast. It's a strategy that has worked well for me on strong horses too, but situations happen and now we're trying to figure out how to go beyond when a horse has learned to evade it.

BSMS, situationally if the horse is already bolting I agree about staying on. But sometimes it can be safer to bail if a horse pulls up for a second. That's why I practice my swift dismounts and can leap off a horse in a second. Once at a poker ride a mule bolted off with a pack full of empty beer bottles. If you can imagine the racket of a screeching mule plus the swooshing of a pack full of clanking bottles...our horses were terrified. The mule fixated on my horse as the solution and my horse ran and the mule chased. We were running super fast around a circle, my horse running for her life and the mule chasing after. I was just hanging on. Finally the mule took a breath and my horse braked for a split second to see if she could run another direction, and I was off. The second my feet hit the ground I grabbed my horse's reins, stopped her, the mule pulled up short behind us and the mule's owner grabbed the mule.

I still call it bolting with those special horses...like Booker who took the bit in his teeth. He'd do it gleefully but take all control and would not slow his gallop down steep ridges, over terrain full of downed trees, flat out toward slick pavement. You find yourself calculating the odds of the horse breaking legs, which way he'll topple or will he slide straight when we hit the pavement, etc.

As far as the technique...sometimes it is different for different horses. We all knew how to prevent this. If we were going to gallop, whoever rode Booker had to "check his brain" and make sure the rider had the bit before we took off. If you did this, he'd willingly comply and he was super easy to rate. If you forgot, that was your problem. He'd never give the bit back until he was ready. When a horse has the bit, you can't do anything. Physically you can't break it loose, I've tried and others have tried. I always thought this was an expression until I met a horse that could grab the bit. You can't control speed or direction.

As far as collection, if people want to disregard the studies that show the weight transfer onto the hind legs during collection is very slight and that the force on the front legs increases, and if they want to disregard that when the spine is taken out of the horse and manipulated the amount of bend it produces is very small, then that's up to them. I am the type of person that will believe a study over a feeling.

Collection requires muscle tension, strength, and is not better for a horse or easier on a horse's body. I believe if we could accept it as a style of riding rather than the method to create horses that move "better," or use their bodies "best," it would help the less informed.

The idea of round is why a woman I know pulls her horse's head behind the vertical so he can't see on trail rides, which makes him nervous. "Arabs come out of the womb with their head behind the vertical" she told me once. "Haven't you ever been to Arab shows?" Um...yes....
The idea of round is why another woman I know puts draw reins on her Quarter Horse and canters him around and around the arena on his forehand. She told me "If he can't get his neck rounded over he can't use his back properly and get under himself."

The idea of round is why another rider I know has not progressed beyond the walk in her dressage lessons after six months. Every time she goes faster the horse lifts his neck and pushes his nose out, so they go back to working on "accepting the bit" at the walk. All of these beginner level riders (and their instructors) have bought into the idea that a rounded over looking neck and back is the way horses must move.

If they enjoy doing this, it's fine. But please don't try to sell this as a universal principle for horses and riders to follow. Which I've seen as people in disciplines from reining to hunter to pleasure to even endurance have bought into the idea that horses need to "round up" in order to carry themselves properly. I'd like people to understand this look has an aesthetic appeal but is not a physiological necessity. I'd also like the style to become less fashionable so we could appreciate the different anatomy horses are born with rather than trying to make them all look like baroque horses.
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post #82 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 07:21 PM
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Sorry but who said dressage riders believe they are the only ones that know how to ride in collection?
True its mainly dressage riders and just a handful of them that aim for achieving the higher levels of collection that you see in Piaffe but show jumpers use collection all the time, show ring riders use collection, hunting horses use collection, western riders use collection and even some of the top National Hunt Trainers (UK racing over fences) are teaching collection to horses in pre-training now so they can be better placed on a stride before jumping
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post #83 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot
Collection requires muscle tension, strength, and is not better for a horse or easier on a horse's body. I believe if we could accept it as a style of riding rather than the method to create horses that move "better," or use their bodies "best," it would help the less informed.
Collection is not a style of riding. Do not make up definitions to help the less informed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot
The idea of round is why another rider I know has not progressed beyond the walk in her dressage lessons after six months. Every time she goes faster the horse lifts his neck and pushes his nose out, so they go back to working on "accepting the bit" at the walk. All of these beginner level riders (and their instructors) have bought into the idea that a rounded over looking neck and back is the way horses must move.
That sounds like a bad instructor, someone that should not be teaching riding, if a rider can't trot after 6 months. Don't blame a word such as "round" on a bad instructor. "Round" is an internationally accepted concept in riding.
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Last edited by updownrider; 03-14-2016 at 07:41 PM.
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post #84 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
Sorry but who said dressage riders believe they are the only ones that know how to ride in collection?
I never said that...I said the concept of "round" was broadly misapplied across disciplines.

But...seems like a few people told at least one person posting on here that riders who thought they had experienced collection had not, that without having the context of riding a well trained dressage horse the rider would misinterpret and think a horse was collected when it was really "bunched," etc.
Quote:
Collection is not a style of riding. Do not make up definitions to help the less informed.
That sounds like a bad instructor, someone that should not be teaching riding, if a rider can't trot after 6 months. Don't blame a word such as "round" on a bad instructor. "Round" is an internationally accepted concept in riding.
Collection is a style of riding. The horse is taught to move his body in a certain way that is pleasing to the trainer.
What would you call it...a method of riding? Or would you rather call it a "frame?" Which was a big no no to use the word "frame" when I was in dressage lessons. To my instructors, frame meant a pose that began with the neck rather than a position they felt was achieved by thrusting forward from the hind end which involved the rider "containing the energy" from the hind end with the bit so the horse could move "through" the body with a "swinging back" and use the impulsion of the hind end to lift the front end.
Unfortunately, the current definitions are not only unhelpful to the uninformed who wish to learn, but they are detrimental.
Round is a confusing, misleading term that is widely used in riding and widely misinterpreted and misapplied. Many poor instructors would possibly be better instructors if they were using concepts based on science rather than popular ones that are "internationally accepted."
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post #85 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by updownrider View Post
Smilie, I'm confused. The OP never asked about bolting.
You are right, but BSMS brought in up, and then it continued on by others, and why I suggested a separate thread on bolting. My point exactly!
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post #86 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 08:47 PM
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OKay- to simplify, Collected, means to 'bring together', shorten /compress, and would be the opposite of strung out,.
Hocks are under a horse that is collected, versus , 'left out behind'
Good horsemen know what terms mean, far as how they ride.
Does riding on the buckle, mean you somehow turn your belt upside down and sit on it!
When a horse is said to be strung out, I don`t think any horseman thinks that the horse has a string attached at both ends, stretching that horse out
Why, instead of agonizing over terms like `rounded, really learn to ride horses, so they are light and responsive, versus pounding along on their forehand, leaning on the bit…
Yes, there is a happy medium, which we use most times, just riding a horse out, but a well trained horse achieves a higher degree of athletic ability when asked to move collected, correctly, for a certain maneuver, and a`horse that can ride both ways, is more highly trained, then one that can just ride `natural
Not everyone needs to go to university, but why disc those riders that like to have a horse with a university education, versus just grade school. Does not mean he can`t go back to grade school level at any time, or that a person with a university education, does not just relax when that learning is not required,
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post #87 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 09:07 PM
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gottatrot, I don't know why you think round is so widely misinterpreted. You have said in other posts other words or terms confused you, too. Perhaps you had poor instruction in your past or you are reading the wrong articles. All I can suggest is that instead of arguing, maybe you should read some of the great material being posted here by some horsemen and horsewomen that have a lot of experience.

Valued, experienced horsemen wrote this article.

http://dressagementor.com/membership...DoICollect.pdf

From the article:

Quote:
Think of collection as a loading of the hind legs- a shifting of the center of gravity to the rear.



Quote:
To get a feel for this idea of loading the hind legs, imagine your horse is standing on two bathroom scales. Sixty percent of his weight is on the front legs and 40% is on his hind legs. This is what we see at Training Level.
As he's progressively collected, the proportions change. At the next stage
(First Level) he'll have 55% of his weight on the front legs and 45% of his weight on the hind legs.
Then at around Second Level where we start “modest collection”, he'll have
equal weight in front and behind.
The most collected horse, the upper level dressage horse, has more weight
on the rear scale than the front scale.
a visual
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY7dcLqJGc
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Last edited by updownrider; 03-14-2016 at 09:14 PM.
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post #88 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 09:14 PM
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The only problem is that your percentages of how the weight shifts are based on random numbers and not on what actual measured pressures show during studies.
So this is all illusionary.
I'm not actually confused at all, and am not arguing with you or any of the others who are firm believers in these things. It sounds like I had similar instruction to what you and some others on here have had. It's just that some of you accept the teaching and don't question it, while I was led to change my mind later on.

I'm just bringing up these points for those open minded riders/readers who will come along with inquiring minds and question those concepts they were taught as I was about roundness, collection and how best to ride a horse.

I was sold on these ideas as being scientific, until I discovered that how horses actually are put together and how they move is different from what I was led to believe. I find it similar to how photography illuminated how horses really move at fast speeds, and now we are beginning to understand how the muscles and bones and tendons really work. It's not "confusion," it's learning new things and being open to the idea that new discoveries may contradict dearly held beliefs.
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post #89 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 10:00 PM
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"But...seems like a few people told at least one person posting on here that riders who thought they had experienced collection had not, that without having the context of riding a well trained dressage horse the rider would misinterpret and think a horse was collected when it was really "bunched," etc. "

gottatrot, I don't think anyone here said a well trained dressage horse was needed to experience the round. I know I added my two cents worth to the conversation, and my Arab is NOT a finely tuned dressage machine.
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post #90 of 177 Old 03-14-2016, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post

As for Bandit becoming collected when he is nervous, that is not collection. The nervousness would mean he had tension and with true collection there is no tension. He is just bunching himself up.
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
I am not sure how the mental image of "rounding up" would lead to bad riding.

and yes, a horse can collect without pressure in its' mouth, but if we want him to collect when and where we want it to happen, we'll have to devise SOME way to signal our desire and insist on obediance. the bit helps.

and, using the term "bunching up" is just another horse term to describe a feeling. the horse, when tense or worried, does feel to be bunching up. he will tuck his tail, drop his hind quarters a bit, flex his hocks in order to drop his hind, and often step under himself, thus bringing his hind legs closer to his front legs.

IN FACT, part of the necessary actions to achieve collection are having the hing legs come closer to the fore. and yes, the front legs muscles must engage to provide that 'stop' action (what we dressage riders describe as keeping the energy from falling out the front)

HOWEVER, if the horse "engages" his hocks (means bends them and brings them further under his body) the horse can transfer some of his weight backward off of the front legs.

also, it's not just how much weight in on the legs, but how softly the hrose carries that weight by using MUSCLES in his shoulders, neck, abdomin, etc to absorb impact through muscle tension. the weight of the horse is the weight of the hrose. but it can either go jolting through his body (where in the muslces do not flex, relax, flex to absorb it) and into the rider's body (jolt!!!) OR . . .

the horse can engage those same muscles, flex those hocks to become a bit like shock absorbers, and thus the energy that the rider feels is more wave like, and less jack hammer like.

which would you prefer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot View Post
But...seems like a few people told at least one person posting on here that riders who thought they had experienced collection had not, that without having the context of riding a well trained dressage horse the rider would misinterpret and think a horse was collected when it was really "bunched," etc.
gottatrot - On the subject of bunching, a well trained dressage horse never came up.
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