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post #91 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
The whole trotting on the line thing. Meh. She knows that you're just going to slow down and not make her do it, so she doesn't even bother trying. If you really want her to trot on the line (which isn't a huge deal, in my book), MAKE her. Carry your 5' lunge whip at your left side pointing back and down with the lash tucked up in your hand that's carrying the whip. Start to jog. If she doesn't break into a trot, flick the end of that whip over behind your body and tap her hard on the flank. Do this until she starts trotting with you, then settle back to a walk after a few steps of trotting. Rinse and repeat..
I got her to do it the first time without putting any pressure on her. She doesnt like the whip or anything sneaking around me and hitting her while leading. She sees it, feels it then will all of a sudden jump a couple steps.

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Get those shoulders up and back. Walk like you're confident and in charge. Don't look at her. You lead. She follows. If she doesn't follow, she'll get a sharp yank on the halter to remind her to keep up. .
Actually when I first started leading horses I always had my shoulders up and back. But a past trainer said if i stand and walk too structured that horses find it threatening. So she said to relax the shoulders, relax my body posture.

Should I go back to shoulders up and back again cause if wouldnt take long for me to adjust back.

Quote:
When you're yielding her hindquarters, she's doing it on her terms. You also waited too long to correct her when she put her head down to sniff. The SECOND she even tries to put her head down, you bring it back up. You're body language when you're making her yield is very passive. Shoulders hunched, looking at her head, angled away from her body. Full face her hindquarters, shoulders up and back, and CONCENTRATE on what part you want to move. At 5:35-6 and 5:46-9, what you did was almost perfect! You notice how she moved her hindquarters away without you having to touch her? Because you were looking AT her hindquarters, not her head. At 6:24-38, you're not looking at what part you want to move. You're looking at her head or her barrel, which is confusing her. That's why she's not moving. I can go out, at liberty in the turnout, and yield any part of my gelding's body just by looking at it. You stare at it and think "Move!" That translates to your body language and the horse gets the message..
I would say my worst habit is not keeping my eye on the body part I want them to move, same with leading my eyes will tend to wander at the ground or wherever when i should be looking no where than straight to where we are going. I use to be really good with looking straight ahead when leading but then it was one of my past trainers who told me to relax the body posture, relax the walk, relax the shoulders and relax the eyes.

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When you're yielding her forequarters, you're concentrating on the wrong part of the body. It's her shoulders, not her head that you need to pay attention to. Notice how she wants to just turn her head away from you and/or basically walks away from you, not take that step over that you want? That's because you're concentrating on her head and thereby asking her to move head. Concentrate on the point of her shoulder and think "Move!" If she doesn't move it, poke her or put pressure physically on the spot you're concentrating on. The second she gives you even ONE step over, release all pressure. .
I learned this method from one of my past trainers, focusing on the head. When she first taught her this, she did the same...put one hand on the side of her face and the other just behind her head.

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I am REALLY confused at what happened at 9:25-56! And so is your poor mare!! I saw no infraction (and I watched it literally THREE TIMES) and all of a sudden you're spinning around in her face and chasing her. What did she do? And then when you're lunging her, you need to keep the pressure on if you want her moving faster. You can't put some pressure on, then let her relax, then put the pressure back on, then let her relax, etc. Either pressure for two or three circuits and quit or no pressure and let her just circle you a few times. Either way, you HAVE to be consistent and fair. You're lack of consistency and fairness are what is causing her attitude there. She's saying "Why should I try if it's not going to be good enough?".
You cant see it but when I was trying to get her to trot with me, i tapped her barrel with the end of the lead and at the side of my eye caught her making the gesture to bite.

I obviously wanted to lunge her with pressure but the space was tight and i couldnt push her without her most likely running into the white poles in the ground.

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Overall, she's VERY good on the lead. WAY better than I expected. .
Thanks. I think she is too.

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I see a pretty little mare who is trying, but because of a lack of consistency and fairness, shuts down at points or gets distracted. She seems VERY sweet and would absolutely flourish with a fair, consistent hand. She looks like she would do well with showmanship, really, with how she stays right with you and pays attention when you're weaving those poles. Maybe that's something you could look into. Showmanship or in-hand trail..
I have considered showmanship with her

.
Quote:
ETA: The part you mentioned about trying to get her to trot, she went to bite, and you smacked her. I saw none of that. I don't have audio on my work computer, so maybe I missed your verbal cue. However, it just looked like you were starting to walk and then all of a sudden flew off the handle at her. Still, consistent and fair are the way to go, regardless of the amount of space you have. If you can't lunge her at a consistent gait, don't lunge her. Back her up or make her yield.
She did try to bite, the cam was too far out to pick it up. She didnt reach for it but she made the gesture, I caught it immediately.

Ok ill keep that in mind, that if i cant lunge her at a consistent gait, then dont lunge at all.

Should I give this another go tonight, or do you think it would be too much too soon for her. If you guys feel giving this same stuff another go tonight isnt too muich for her, then im more than willing to record it again.
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post #92 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:06 PM
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PS I would not let them (son and daughter) put music to my video, I wanted the real sounds. I suggest that for you next time, too.
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post #93 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
PS I would not let them (son and daughter) put music to my video, I wanted the real sounds. I suggest that for you next time, too.
I plan on doing real sounds next time, its just that I was in a bit of a crunch and didnt get the sound adjusted to record.

I puthe music on there so you guys werent bored with no sound.

Im willing to do another one tonight if you guys think its not too much, too soon for my horse.

The good news is that i make adjustments very fast, i put them in right away.

The adjustments I will make today are:

1) Back to shoulders up and straight.
2) Bit of a faster walk
3) Keep my eyes on the body part i want to move, dont look anywhere else
4) Quicker when pulling her head up after trying to sniff
5) Dont lunge unless i have enough space
6) Move her fore quarters by putting pressure on her shoulder (where would you put both hands then) Im guessing one on shoulder and one on upper neck
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Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-15-2015 at 12:31 PM.
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post #94 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:36 PM
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Hoofpic, thank you for posting this. It is SO helpful to see what's going on.

I saw a gentle, relatively compliant mare who was a little bored and distracted. Some of moments when she wasn't compliant (trotting, yielding, etc.), I would almost say it's because she just bored with it and why bother? It looks like she's ready for something more challenging and engaging.

I was expecting to see a horse that was pushy, rude, bordering on dangerous. A lot of your posts say she is "angry" or "mad" when you are making her do things, but I didn't see an angry or mad horse here. Maybe we didn't see what those behaviors typically look like in her, but I really didn't see anything that would make me nervous about one of my competent young students leading this horse around. You can do it!

There was a point around 5 min in where she was more interested in sniffing a pile of poop than paying attention to you- you reacted immediately there and pulled her off- and look what she did after that, a little lick and chew and then eyes/ears on you for a few seconds, waiting to see what you wanted next.

At around 7:12, I think maybe she was threatening to nibble you? Watch that part, you flinched back as she moved towards you- I totally get it, it's just a natural reaction. Be conscious of when that happens and gradually work so you stand your ground and eventually deflect strongly enough that she knows it's not worth it.

I agree with what Drafty says about not looking at her. You need to establish your own sense of purpose, and you march yourself there confidently, she follows. It's so hard, but resist the temptation to look back over your shoulder. Just GO. I personally find it really hard to maintain that sense of purpose drilling in an arena, but it's a necessary first step until you're ready to go out into less controlled environments.

Maybe you'd both enjoy working on a trail obstacle course- would give you more of a clear sense of purpose until you're doing more riding. I think she just needs to have more engaging tasks put in front of her. Here are a bunch of fun trail obstacle ideas: https://www.actha.us/obstacles You're not going to be ready for all of them, but even just setting up poles of various heights in various patterns and going over them at different gaits will get her mind working.

I think you have a lot to build on here. You're going to be just fine. Don't overthink it, and switch things up so that your horse isn't bored and soured. Get up there and ride with your trainer- whether on your horse or a school horse- so you can build your own confidence too.
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post #95 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:42 PM
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You can let your eyes wander. You don't have to be a soldier. But, walk confidently. That's what I mean by shoulders up and back. Right now, you're almost curled in on yourself, which is a very submissive posture. It's saying to your horse "I'm not entirely sure where we're going or what we're doing."

When I lead, I walk just like I don't have a 1600lbs animal next to me. Relaxed, confident, shoulders back (as much as I can...I have physical issues that limit that). My eyes wander, my head turns as I look at things. I'll look over and see what my BO is up to or watch what another boarder is doing in the round pen or arena.

Look at this pic of me leading my gelding. This is when I first got him as a barely-handled 2yo stud colt. I had had him maybe a month and a half when this pic was taken. When I bought him, he had no clue how to lead politely.


See how I'm relaxed and confident? I know he's going to follow me. If he doesn't, he'll get a rude awakening when he hits the end of that lead rope.

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post #96 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
6) Move her fore quarters by putting pressure on her shoulder (where would you put both hands then) Im guessing one on shoulder and one on upper neck
This is where a carrot stick can come in handy. Focus on her shoulder, hands at your sides (lead rope in the hand closer to her head, carrot stick in the other), and think "Move!" If she doesn't take that step, bring the carrot stick up toward the spot you're concentrating on on her shoulder. Still doesn't move? Touch that spot with the end of the carrot stick. STILL refusing to move? Push into that spot with increasing pressure with the end of the carrot stick until she does move. The second she takes even one step over, take all pressure off and give her a scratch and a "Good girl." Rinse and repeat from the beginning until you don't have to move your hands at all, just look at the body part you want to move and she moves it. Always reward the slightest try. Even if it's just one step. She seems smart and sensitive. There's no reason she won't pick it up in no time.

I think the way you're asking for the forequarter yield is why she's not complying and getting a little attitude about it. She's confused as to what you want.
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post #97 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by egrogan View Post
I saw a gentle, relatively compliant mare who was a little bored and distracted. Some of moments when she wasn't compliant (trotting, yielding, etc.), I would almost say it's because she just bored with it and why bother? It looks like she's ready for something more challenging and engaging.
Well we have done so much groundwork (even more with the trainers) that i want to move on to new and exciting stuff. THis is why ive been looking into fun excersizes for us to do. I have couple a couple obstacle excersizes with her but the last time was about 3 weeks ago.

According to her previous owner she excels best at obstacles cause it keeps her mind stimulated.

Quote:
You can do it!
Thanks

Quote:
There was a point around 5 min in where she was more interested in sniffing a pile of poop than paying attention to you- you reacted immediately there and pulled her off- and look what she did after that, a little lick and chew and then eyes/ears on you for a few seconds, waiting to see what you wanted next.
Yes this was one of the first things I noticed when rewatching the video for the first time. Good sign.

I could have pulled her up a lot sooner than I did when she sniffed, I was just too casual about it.

Quote:
At around 7:12, I think maybe she was threatening to nibble you? Watch that part, you flinched back as she moved towards you- I totally get it, it's just a natural reaction. Be conscious of when that happens and gradually work so you stand your ground and eventually deflect strongly enough that she knows it's not worth it.
Didnt notice this but i always make sure if she tries to nibble on me, i smack her muzzle right away. I usually smack her then immediately get her out of my space. And the carry on right away like nothing happened.

Quote:
I agree with what Drafty says about not looking at her. You need to establish your own sense of purpose, and you march yourself there confidently, she follows. It's so hard, but resist the temptation to look back over your shoulder. Just GO. I personally find it really hard to maintain that sense of purpose drilling in an arena, but it's a necessary first step until you're ready to go out into less controlled environments.
Im confident i can do this and to stop looking at her.

Quote:
Maybe you'd both enjoy working on a trail obstacle course- would give you more of a clear sense of purpose until you're doing more riding. I think she just needs to have more engaging tasks put in front of her. Here are a bunch of fun trail obstacle ideas: https://www.actha.us/obstacles You're not going to be ready for all of them, but even just setting up poles of various heights in various patterns and going over them at different gaits will get her mind working.

I think you have a lot to build on here. You're going to be just fine. Don't overthink it, and switch things up so that your horse isn't bored and soured. Get up there and ride with your trainer- whether on your horse or a school horse- so you can build your own confidence too.
Thanks for the excersizes. I want to get more into obstacles with her because i want her to have fun working with me. Dont want her to be bored.
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post #98 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
This is where a carrot stick can come in handy. Focus on her shoulder, hands at your sides (lead rope in the hand closer to her head, carrot stick in the other), and think "Move!" If she doesn't take that step, bring the carrot stick up toward the spot you're concentrating on on her shoulder. Still doesn't move? Touch that spot with the end of the carrot stick. STILL refusing to move? Push into that spot with increasing pressure with the end of the carrot stick until she does move. The second she takes even one step over, take all pressure off and give her a scratch and a "Good girl." Rinse and repeat from the beginning until you don't have to move your hands at all, just look at the body part you want to move and she moves it. Always reward the slightest try. Even if it's just one step. She seems smart and sensitive. There's no reason she won't pick it up in no time.

I think the way you're asking for the forequarter yield is why she's not complying and getting a little attitude about it. She's confused as to what you want.
Thanks. Do you think it would be too soon to try this tonight with her. That method youre mentioning sounds a lot like the parreli method in moving the HQ.

Can I tap her shoulder with the carrot stick or should I push in instead.

Unfortunately, what ive been doing with my hands near her face is what my previous trainer taught me. But im glad that its not the right way to do it.
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post #99 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 01:10 PM
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This is all to help you, take it or leave it:

The first thing I notice, before we even get to 30 seconds, is you look down and kind of shuffle when you walk. You have to lead with your head up high, shoulders back, and walk with purpose. What's the point of following you if you lack in energy?

Also when you walk with her, she starts to lag behind. This is where I would be asking her to step it up so her head-neck region is even with your shoulders

This is all before 38 second marker

When you're trying to trot with her, you're literally dragging her, when you should be pushing her from behind. Horse has their engine in their hind end.. not their face.

This is just my preference: Once you did get her going, I would have trotted in hand all over the place and stop when you wanted to stop, by slowing down the jogging and then walk.

At 1 minute marker, she didn't stop when you stopped and so you had to pull her around you. Do not pull a horse around to you if they won't stop. This is where I would correct, big. If you had a whip, tap the ground infront of her hard, and then if you felt confident, yield her hind end to where she should have stopped, then halt for a few seconds and repeat what you asked of her again. Do a large circle just walking her in hand, and then test your halt again. If she barges again, correct her 'big' again. Repeat until she gives you what you want, then let her stand still and mull it over. You could even stroke her neck if you wanted.. but she has to stand still.

Watch your OWN body language first, though.

1:12 marker
You're ahead of her walking again, and when you go to trot inhand you're dragging her by her face again. And when she doesn't even TRY, you give up and move on. NO. That's the fastest way to get a horse not to listen to you, which can be dangerous.

1:45ish marker

Your turn was horrendous. It's like you literally dropped her, turned yourself around, slung the rope into your other hand, and then pulled her face expecting her to follow you again. While she should follow you, try to get her to WANT to follow you. Work on how you turn, please...

After that turn, look at her overall expression. She's ANNOYED because you're still pulling on her face, instead of driving her from behind, when she's wearing a halter with knots. I repeat, make her want to follow you. Drive her from behind, don't tow her by her face.

It's no surprise she decides not to trot

2:10 mark

Notice how well she follows you when you don't walk infront of her, then at 2:14 how when you do, it's causing her to be dragged again and she gets sluggish and has that look on her face... and it changes when the pressure comes off at 2:20 when she is next to you again. Please OP notice that.

2:30 marker

Her attention isn't even on you, this is dangerous as if she is not paying attention to you, she could easily trample you. And again, she doesn't trot.

Better turn but you kind of swing her around, instead of driving her from behind. So it's no surprise that she continue to swing around to look at whatever actually has her attention. Again, dangerous.

Your timing and intensity of the spinning rope is off. You still apply pressure eventhough she already moved over. If pressure is still on, she should continue to yield her hind.

I like that at 2:55 how you repositioned yourself and patted her, that was good.

The two halts at 3:12 were good. She was following your lead, good.

At 3:18 however, not good. There was no drive from behind so you essentially asked her to swing her butt, and yield her shoulder and then halt immediately. Which she did exactly as you asked, but you need to better prepare your horse.

Shortly after you walked ahead of her, no drive from behind, she wasn't even focusing on you.

She starts to look at your body language and anticipates you're going to stop, that's good and bad. Good that she's paying attention, but bad that she's anticipating as that is when she gets 'sludgy' as I call it. It's just a hint, but it can get worse over time. Be aware of that!

You aren't paying attention to her, so she takes that advantage of walking around in a circle, likely to stare at whatever had her attention. The jerk disengaged her hindquarters but notice she's exactly where she wanted to be, staring over at whatever has her attention.

Now at 3:49, my horse does this too. I call it overreacting. You used a LOT of energy to get her to yield to you, without any touch. Try toning it down a hair, so you're using as little as you need to get her to comply. Also does she accept you touching her all over on that side, or does she give you the sour face?

The second yielding of her butt was better, but you gave her no end point at which to stop. Yes pressure was off but your body was telling her to yield further. How? Look at your chest. It's pointed right at her hip. Now when you move it to point at her shoulder, what happens?

SHE STOPS :)

That's how you influence a horse on the lungeline, or in-hand.

When she goes to sniff the pile of poop, I would have "sent" her away from it, by driving her from behind. The yank wasn't really much of a correction.

4:40
Your leadline loop is hovering above the ground and could easily be stepped on by your mare.

Shortly after, you don't ask her to stop definitively before you pat her. Again work on your timing

Her hind-end yields got better.

That was an awkward but smooth send-away. Look at 5:57 when it concluded, she looks happier than she did the entire previous footage. Notice how she happily yields her hind end to you.

Then see when you go to drag her again her face changes, and she loses focus again.

Just a disclaimer though, young horses and even older horses lose focus quite easily. It's your job to maintain her focus.

You did a lot of hind yielding..... I wouldn't have done so much. And you let her get away with backing up instead of yielding her hind on that last one. That's how horses get confused on what you want, if you aren't clear.

Then you get to the shoulder yielding. If she goes to bite you, bop her. And only ask for one step of yield. Then halt, then praise. Repeat until she is comfortable with it, then move on.

I think she got uncomfortable because suddenly you got all up in her face...

That second attempt was beautiful! Notice how your hand was asking her to yield her shoulder, but your chest was assisting her by pointing at her head, and your other hand was pushing the leadrope towards her to give her an idea of what you wanted.

That's exactly how you want to do it, on both sides. For some reason, you do it differently on her left side... and notice how she likes to try and bite you on that side. And that last attempt too...

I love that at 8:45ish, she HAPPILY follows you. No dragging her face needed. That's what you want all the time.

And the correction around marker 9:26 was good, it's good to send her forward to the gait you wanted her to do. Good use of opening hand, and driving her from behind. Then it got bleh when you started swinging around your hand holding the lead instead of the hind holding the excess. Remember HIND is the engine. If you wanted to to stop, then you either stand ahead of her on your own track (so you don't get trampled) or raise the hand lead and not drive her from behind anymore.

It's good that you are diving her but only use as much as is needed.

Good use of your turning aid, very fluid... but you NEED to drive her forward. Don't just let her flutter about, give her a job to do.

Again with the dragging, though this time it's not really dragging but she's still lagging behind.

Beautiful lead and halt at 10:28. Always do it that way. She's right where she should be, she's happy, she followed your body language, and she's focused on you.

Beautiful yield of her shoulders at 10:36, and great leading through the poles. She's lagging a little behind the second time around, and you're back to looking down... but she yielded herself nicely again. And she stopped when you stopped, which is great!

So really what I'd say you need to work on is looking up and giving CLEAR direction of what you want her to do. What may help is my past instructor had me work on groundwork before we did our lessons. Mainly it was how to lead a horse with purpose, and to give them clear direction of what you want them to do. You seem capable so I'll share:

When you want to walk forward, raise the hand holding your leadrope level to her chin, and channel energy forward. Head up, shoulders back, with purpose. If she doesn't go, do as you did and tap her with the leadrope excess on her barrel.

Always revert to calm after a correction.

When you want to stop, lower your own energy and at the same time lower your hand fluidly to down where you usually have it. If she doesn't stop, spin the rope infront of her nose and cease as soon as she does. (The same helicopter method Drafty referenced)

To trot, you have to do the same as to walk but even more energy, and get after her if she doesn't listen. Don't get infront of her, don't drag her, if all else fails, send her away to be lunged as you did in the video, just do not jerk her face around. Open hand, drive with your leadrope excess.

It might help to assign a word when you are teaching her to trot in hand. She should be listening to your body language but anything helps.

Focus on your timing, and be aware of every part of your body and how it is interacting with your horse.
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Last edited by Skyseternalangel; 10-15-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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post #100 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 01:24 PM
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I read the rest of the thread: I did see the tap on the barrel with the leadrope at 9:26, and liked that you finally corrected her. It was just very messy. Corrections should be as systematic as possible, so the horse knows that whatever behavior they were doing is undesired and doesn't confuse them.

I disagree about the jerk with the poop pile. She didn't have her attention on you, I would have made her move her feet. Now if you were trying to get on (scenario only) and she did that, then the jerk would be used IMOP.

I agree with the music. We're horse people, we don't easily get bored watching footage of horses haha.

Notice after you corrected her at 9:26 how she started to do better leading overall. Even though it was a messy correction, it changed her mindset and yours.

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