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post #1101 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Im thinking ill bring in a chiro ASAP, i have a strong feeling she is out somewhere. When she clacked her teeth at me and pinned her ears, it totally reminded me of when my ex's mare did that to her and turned out she needed an adjustment. One of her ribs was out. After she got that done, she was instantly night and day better.

Im here at the barn reading (waiting for my lesson coming up in couple hours) and its too bad I cant talk about this stuff with my trainer cause she doesnt believe in chiros and massage (which is really unfortunate how against it she is).

Cause if she rides her, she needs to know about her possibly being out. Though she said she hasnt noticed anything when she rides or brushes or saddles my mare. But would it be a good idea for my trainer to not ride my mare until i get her checked by a chiro?

If she is clacking her teeth at me and pinning her ears, i doubt its just a minor sore spot. Either she got kicked from one of her mates or its from the saddle.

I highly HIGHLY doubt its from her being ridden over the past 8 weeks.

Also and MOST IMPORTANTLY, did I do the right thing when my mare tried to bite? By me trying to find out exactly where she is soar by skimming her hair with my hand and after i didnt get another reaction again I stopped and put her back in the field. I was curious and felt I needed to find out but i didnt want to **** her off and as much as I wanted to find out, i feel its best left to a professional to assess.
Let your trainer ride her, but watch how she acts during the grooming and saddling phase of things, and then watch closely (can you video the whole thing maybe?) while she rides her. That can tell you a lot about how sore and where, without you having to pick at her.

I don't think you were wrong in how you handled her, she warned you but didn't get mean about it. Others probably won't agree with me, but I kind of feel like as long as she didn't actually try to bite, then she was just trying to tell you that she's uncomfortable. If she had made contact or continued to try to bite, then I'd have said you should have given her a serious CTJ but she didn't, so to me, no harm no foul as long as it doesn't continue.

Now if the Chiro comes out and says there's nothing wrong and the masseuse can't find anything, then it's time to start looking for attitude and fixing it. If they find and issue and fix it and the mare doesn't continue with her warning behavior, then I'd let it be.

My trainer doesn't believe in Chiro or Massage either. Not for horses, not for humans. Calls 'em "Witch doctors" and won't have any part of them. For that, I fall back on the "My horse, My money, My decision" mantra and I do as I please. Even he will admit that the horse's attitude improves once he's been adjusted. So, you can't make her believe and you can't share some of the things you see with someone who doesn't buy into it, but you can see it and you can do something about it, you don't need anyone's permission.

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post #1102 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
Let your trainer ride her, but watch how she acts during the grooming and saddling phase of things, and then watch closely (can you video the whole thing maybe?) while she rides her. That can tell you a lot about how sore and where, without you having to pick at her.
Talked to my trainer today after my lesson and she said that she didnt ride her at all this past week cause of the weather and the week before once (which is fine!). When its too cold, its too cold. She suggested that she doesnt ride my mare again until the spring and then started up hard again. She said she wants to see me ride as much as I can in the winter to prepare myself for spring. I think this is the best possible suggestion anyone could have given me. Its not that she doesnt want to ride my mare, she feels my mare has accomplished enough over the past 7 weeks and for me to focus on riding more so that I can prepare myself.

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I don't think you were wrong in how you handled her, she warned you but didn't get mean about it. Others probably won't agree with me, but I kind of feel like as long as she didn't actually try to bite, then she was just trying to tell you that she's uncomfortable. If she had made contact or continued to try to bite, then I'd have said you should have given her a serious CTJ but she didn't, so to me, no harm no foul as long as it doesn't continue.
Well will find out tomorrow I guess if shes soar or was being a brat as I found a chiro to come out.

IMO she tried to bite, she was aggressive about it and if it wasnt for her being tied, she would have moved her head closer to me IMO.

Quote:
Now if the Chiro comes out and says there's nothing wrong and the masseuse can't find anything, then it's time to start looking for attitude and fixing it.
Yes, but I do strongly believe she is soar somewhere. When my massage therapist was out last weekend, she was massaging her HQ on the left and my mare turned her hind to the therapist and made the gesture as if she was going to kick out. THerapist thankfully reacted quick enough to get out of the way.

Quote:
If they find and issue and fix it and the mare doesn't continue with her warning behavior, then I'd let it be.
Ok

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My trainer doesn't believe in Chiro or Massage either. Not for horses, not for humans. Calls 'em "Witch doctors" and won't have any part of them. For that, I fall back on the "My horse, My money, My decision" mantra and I do as I please. Even he will admit that the horse's attitude improves once he's been adjusted. So, you can't make her believe and you can't share some of the things you see with someone who doesn't buy into it, but you can see it and you can do something about it, you don't need anyone's permission.
Youre right, I cant make my trainer believe in my therapist. I can say that my therapist has healed my mare from past lameness and that my mare reacts really well to red light but that means nothing to my trainer.
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post #1103 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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I feel great about todays lesson. I was skeptical about it because I actually have been having a soar back today (must have woken up on the wrong side of the bed or something), it didnt start up til this morning. Told my trainer and just said "I dont know how today is going to go". Just wanted to give her a heads up in case I regressed in todays lesson because of the discomfort in my back. She asked if I wanted to reschedule cause i shouldnt be riding with a soar back but i said I wanted to ride (see how dedicated I am). She said ok. And yes it was a bit questionable at first because the mare I ride has a big trot.

So I get on and we work on more of the same, trotting on a 20m circle to work on my positioning and my balance. At first I was having some difficulty getting the mare to trot straight through without slowing down, so my trainer put her on a lunge line. We did that for 5mins or so.

Then she got me to do a couple full big circles around the arena at a full trot then go back to the 20m circle again and I first did a couple circles at a trot around the 20m circle and she said it was really good. No slow downs, consistent trot, my posture was good, my ques were good, legs, hands were good but the end was a bit of a letdown as the mare unexpectedly started to canter and I was so caught by surprise I didnt know how to handle it. She said I must have given her the que to canter but I didnt.

So after my trainer told me how to handle her cantering when not asked, I decided to give a few more circles around at a full trot and my trainer said its the best series of circles shes seen me do and it couldnt have been any better. She was really happy and hearing her praise gave me a big boost of confidence. She went into more detail about what I did really well that made her praise me and said that I was getting in sync into a ryhtmym.

She said over time once I will get more in rythym it will feel natural to me and after today I have no doubt that my trainer has more confidence in me becoming a good decent rider. When I say "good decent rider" I mean as in good enough to ride my mare over time. Her praise meant a lot to me. Its too bad I didnt have it taped to show you guys.
She then asked if I wanted to try it again but I said no because I want to leave it on a good note and let things sync in.

Maybe when she asked me last week if I wanted to ride my mare, maybe it wasnt a trick question? Not saying that Im ready to ride my mare (I dont think I am), but perhaps she saw me progress enough that riding my mare with her supervising wasnt completely out of the question. But I want to be better safe than sorry. Really REALLY dont want to mess up my mare, especially with how well things have been going for us over the past month. Would hate to risk any set backs.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 11-28-2015 at 08:16 PM.
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post #1104 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 08:17 PM
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Your trainer sounds pretty forthright. I wouldn't take her asking if you want to ride your own horse as a trick question. I'd give her a straight answer, depending on your confidence level, yes or no.

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post #1105 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
Your trainer sounds pretty forthright. I wouldn't take her asking if you want to ride your own horse as a trick question. I'd give her a straight answer, depending on your confidence level, yes or no.
Shes very straightforward which I like. Taking directions from her is very easy as she is direct. Ive watched and listened to her quite a bit working with the kids who ride and I honestly dont think she can do a better job at it. Kids are learning, having fun, and the parents love her because the kids enjoy their time there so much.

Its obvious that some of the kids are there consistently working towards the goal of their parents buying them a horse one day.

Its interesting because she teaches some of the kids english as well, so even though I dont know too many of the differences really between western and english (other than different styles of saddles, riding attire and the header jumper world is pretty much all english), I still learn a lot from observing but Im trying not to overwhelm myself too much on learning the english side of riding. I even like to watch and observe the kids when they ride, when they lead horses in and out, even groom them. I can see what theyre doing right and doing wrong.

What I did tell her today was that it was too bad that she didnt do as much groundwork with the kids who come here as riding. But she said that very few people who see her actaully care about groundwork, which is a shame because (as you already know) I love the whole horsemanship side of horse ownership and Im one of the few who find ground work very fascinating. I just love it. I also told her how I subbed to Warwick Schiller and that I find watching videos of others work with their horse really beneficial to me because I learn a lot from observation. She said its great.

When Spring comes Im hoping to attend some clinics, (by the time I looked around to it this year it was too late). She said it would be a good idea and they are beneficial. Shes been to them before and she even suggested me one to check out for next year.

As for her not asking how things are with my mare. I dont think its because she doesnt care. But because she gets the feeling things have improved because I havent come to her since then with issues. If I still had outstanding issues with my mare from the past lessons, then Im sure she would figure I would have already come to her about re-assessing them.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 11-28-2015 at 08:34 PM.
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post #1106 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Shes very straightforward which I like. Taking directions from her is very easy as she is direct. Ive watched and listened to her quite a bit working with the kids who ride and I honestly dont think she can do a better job at it. Kids are learning, having fun, and the parents love her because the kids enjoy their time there so much.

Its interesting because she teaches some of the kids english as well, so even though I dont know the differences really between western and english, I still learn a lot from observing but Im trying not to overwhelm myself too much on learning the english side of riding.

What I did tell her today was that it was too bad that she didnt do as much groundwork with the kids who come here as riding. But she said that very few people who see her actaully care about groundwork, which is a shame because (as you already know) I love the whole horsemanship side of horse ownership and I find ground work very fascinating. I told her how I subbed to Warwick Schiller and that I find watching videos of others work with their horse really beneficial to me because I learn a lot from observation. She said its great.

When Spring comes Im hoping to attend some clinics, (by the time I looked around to it this year it was too late). She said it would be a good idea and they are beneficial. Shes been to them before and she even suggested me one to check out for next year.

As for her not asking how things are with my mare. I dont think its because she doesnt care. But because she gets the feeling things have improved because I havent come to her since then with issues.
She sounds like she's kind of an old fashioned (for lack of better words) type of trainer. Back in the day, they taught you how to groom before riding, how to tack up, how to ride and how to untack, end of lesson.

I don't really remember being taught much in the way of ground work, not as a discipline unto itself. More, it was taught as how to break a horse. You tacked up, put the horse in the bull pen and you ground drove the horse around before you got up on it, in the bull pen so things couldn't get too far out of hand.

For the racehorses, we started them in a 36' X 36' manege, until they were accepting enough of saddle and bridle to go out and breeze.

Once you had done the ground driving, you rode the horse in the arena and that was pretty much that for ground work. Until you introduced the jumping aspect, then you set up the bull pen so you could drive the horse around and it had to go over the small obstacles you'd set up. It's only fairly recently that more ground work has come into fashion.

I think right now, many people are getting stuck on the ground work and many use it as an excuse to not have to ride their horses but eventually I think things will come full circle and settle out.

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post #1107 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
She sounds like she's kind of an old fashioned (for lack of better words) type of trainer. Back in the day, they taught you how to groom before riding, how to tack up, how to ride and how to untack, end of lesson.

I don't really remember being taught much in the way of ground work, not as a discipline unto itself. More, it was taught as how to break a horse. You tacked up, put the horse in the bull pen and you ground drove the horse around before you got up on it, in the bull pen so things couldn't get too far out of hand.

For the racehorses, we started them in a 36' X 36' manege, until they were accepting enough of saddle and bridle to go out and breeze.

Once you had done the ground driving, you rode the horse in the arena and that was pretty much that for ground work. Until you introduced the jumping aspect, then you set up the bull pen so you could drive the horse around and it had to go over the small obstacles you'd set up. It's only fairly recently that more ground work has come into fashion.

I think right now, many people are getting stuck on the ground work and many use it as an excuse to not have to ride their horses but eventually I think things will come full circle and settle out.
Well when I told her today that I just subbed to Warwick Schiller, I asked if she knew who he was and she said no. I was surprised. So I asked if she knew who Clint Anderson was and she said no. But she does know Parelli. Just going by her reaction, I could tell 100% that shes not a horsemanship person. Shes not overly fascinated by it like many are.

Its obvious that shes more of a riding instructor than natural horsemanship (which is fine by me). Theres lots of riding instructors out there who still know their horsemanship really well and definitely more than good enough to teach others. She fits the bill.

I was going to ask her about liberty training but if shes not a huge horsemanship person, then I highly doubt shes very much into liberty training (which Im very much into and would love to persue down the road) with my mare.

Thats one thing that I miss from the old barn and the old trainer. She did ground work a lot with her customers and I was always able to sit in on them and observe. There was another boarder there who was just a few years younger than me, but for knowledge and experience she was exactly on my level. She was like me, very much a rookie in all areas of the horse world. I often learned a lot by observing her just handling her gelding. She weighs around 100lbs and her gelding is 16hh and she would often struggle to lead him. He would stay still. So she often would come to me asking for him to get his feet moving. This was way back in May when I didnt have my mare and I was there volunteering, mucking paddocks and grooming the barn helpers 7 ponies. Only difference between her and I was that she had her gelding for a full year before she started doing lessons with him. For a rookie, thats an awful long time to go without any lessons. But she started from the ground up as well, starting with earning his respect.

I also told my trainer today the same as you guys, that if I was to buy my mare today, from the knowledge and experience I have gained over the past 5 months, I would have done a lot of things much differently. I would have been able to lunge her much more efficiently right from the get go. I wouldnt have let her get away with a bunch of little things here and there because I now know what to look for. Im much more aware when handling her. I value just how important body language is. The fact that each time we are working with our horses, we are teaching them something new. Horses are always learning.

But she said whats done is done, for instance no point in lunging her again because shes well past that point.

Do you guys ever see a use for lunging my mare ever again?

Last edited by Hoofpic; 11-28-2015 at 09:00 PM.
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post #1108 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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Another thing I would like to ask is that. My mare has gained muscle over the past 7 weeks from being ridden. Because my trainer said that its best if she doesnt ride her again til the Spring. Do you think she will lose that muscle through the winter? I sure hope not.

I was a bit dissapointed when she said that she feels its best that she doesnt ride her again until the spring (then go hard at it) and that I spend that money on my riding more. But I also understand where she is coming from. She just doesnt see it being too beneficial for my mare when shes ridden in -15 weather, when shes far better off doing it in the springtime. When its too cold, you have to let her stand tied to cool off, dry her off, before letting back out.

Im not dissapointed because I dont want to ride more, but because when my mare is ridden she gains muscle. This is my main goal with her, to gain muscle, especially on those front legs and shoulders. Now that she wont be ridden for possibly the next 4 months, should I not be finding another form of excersize for her? Like even just taking her for walks again.
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post #1109 of 1323 Old 11-28-2015, 11:35 PM
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Take her for walks if you want to, that's good for both of you. Yes, she will lose condition but it won't take her long to get it back in the spring. If you walk her a lot this winter, she won't lose that much.

No, she doesn't need lunged anymore. She's done that to death. Play the 7 Parelli Games with her, use them in unique and challenging ways to make her think. For instance, the Squeeze Game. Do that in progressively narrower areas as she gets used to doing it. Use chairs, cones, trunks, ground poles, whatever you can find to make those "squeezes" for her to walk through, and do them backwards too, backing through an "L" on the ground is excellent for getting her attention and keeping her butt muscles tight. Take a tarp and hang it in different places and find ways to make it move and walk her past, under and through it. Then lay it on the ground and use it like a big puddle or pond and get her to walk on it. These are all things you can do with her, even in a barn aisle if need be.
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post #1110 of 1323 Old 11-29-2015, 03:47 AM
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Yeah just relax she won't lose muscle that quickly and since shes so young its good for her to have a bit of a break. Enjoy your horse take her for long walks and just bond its really fun.
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