A couple questions - Page 14 - The Horse Forum
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post #131 of 1323 Old 10-15-2015, 11:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Reiter View Post
With pressure and release training that most of us use, the horse is trying to make the pressure go away. If biting, kicking, rearing, or running away makes the pressure go away, that's what the horse will do. And yes, then we must teach the horse that those are wrong answers.

But put yourself in the horse's place. She doesn't speak English. She's never watched old episodes of the Lone Ranger She's never seen a YouTube training video. How is she supposed to know what you want? Some horses have a lot of imagination and will try a lot of different behaviors, often hitting on the right one by experimentation. Some horses are good guessers and just seem to be able to find the right answer more times than not. But other horses are not great guessers and don't have great imaginations, so they try a couple of answers, can't get away from the pressure, and get frustrated. They think it's hopeless. They strike out, or shut down.

For those horses especially, it's critical to be clear, by asking in a way that helps guide the horse to the right behavior, and to be fair, rewarding the slightest try.
But what are you trying to say?

All Im wanting to do is to teach her that rearing, biting and kicking out arent acceptable actions and arent tolerated.

She reared because I turned into her side and she wanted to block me from coming over.

She kicked out twice because she didnt like being lunged.

She nipped my arm because she wasnt happy about having to do more leading after I lunged her the first time. I did this because I wanted to see if she learned. I always like to do this - if they refuse to do something the first time, try doing it after you correct them and see if they are more willing to cooperate. Funny, she was much more willing to move over as I lead into her side after I lunged her.

Once you see the video tomorrow, you will see exactly what I mean. If this was with my trainer tonight, my trainer would have given her 7 or 8 elbows and probably much harder and probably would have punched her in the barrel as well. If a horse wont move over when she wants them to, she gives it to them with her fist either in the shoulder or barrel.

You see when she tries to block me and I tell her to move over, I start with the lighest que, which is just sticking out the elbow gesure (no impact), but if she doesnt move over from that, then i elbow her with impact (and really nothing dramatic like shes making it out to be).

And its really too bad this happened because when I went to catch her, I immediately had a great feeling inside me once she greeted me well and when I took her in to brush her, she was so good that I was looking forward to showing you guys how well she was when brushed tonight. Leading out of her paddock, into the barn and out of the barn, she was perfect!

I was looking forward to uploading that video. But not anymore cause it means moot now when the leading has unfortauntely taken over the entire focus of the evening.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-15-2015 at 11:23 PM.
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post #132 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 12:33 AM
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Your mare is adorable. From the video I see a young man who wants to get it right so bad he's trying too hard. It's great you want to be a horseman but you need to learn to relax a little. Once your mare does something right, praise and move on to something different. This is how she learns she's doing it right (the release of pressure). It's ok if you want to work her every day but make your routine maybe something like a bit of lunging first thing, then work on the yields but as soon as she does it right stop, then maybe do something a little more fun like an in hand obstacle course and then if you wanted to... do the yields again before you put her up but it's not necessary.

And I agree with the others who say she's acting out more in frustration than she is due to a bad attitude. Quite honestly there were many times in that video when I had a hard time trying to figure out what you wanted from her.

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post #133 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 08:28 AM
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As I have been saying all along, you have got to be BIGGER from the INSIDE....I cannot see the video, since I am on my ipad! but you say you are tall and your mare is small. You are trying to be smaller because you feel you intimidate her, but you need to be BIGGER. Practice opening your chest, puffing your arms out a bit, and that will help raise your inner self up.

If you are lunging her in a 15' lead rope, you need a longer one. Is the trainer riding her? It sounds like she may not be getting enough exercise.
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post #134 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greentree View Post
As I have been saying all along, you have got to be BIGGER from the INSIDE....I cannot see the video, since I am on my ipad! but you say you are tall and your mare is small. You are trying to be smaller because you feel you intimidate her, but you need to be BIGGER. Practice opening your chest, puffing your arms out a bit, and that will help raise your inner self up.

If you are lunging her in a 15' lead rope, you need a longer one. Is the trainer riding her? It sounds like she may not be getting enough exercise.
I am working on keeping my shoulders and head up. Funny cause when I first starting leading horses (not mine) many months ago, I would walk straight, firm back and shoulders, head up and puffed out chest and arms to make myself feel big.

Then the trainer told me not to cause she said horses see it as threathening. :( I can go back to a firm posture and walk, it might take me a couple days to get it really down pat again.

I started working on it last night, though I still need to work on keeping my eyes forward and not on her. I have no doubt I can do this, it might take another day or two but i am commited.

Yes my trainer is riding her 3 times a week and I make sure I excersize her 3-4 times a week, even if its just going for walks, it still helps (and walks are good for horses!)


------

Anyways, I have edited my video, I took out some redundant stuff, and even though I really dont want people to see my lunging the first go around (cause I wasnt harsh enough), I have decided that I might as well let you guys see anyways. Cause if I start splicing out too many segments from when she rears to when she kicks, the dots wont connect.

Though the last time lunging (about 10mins after when this video ended) is really THE ONE that I would have loved feedback on from all of you. I was completely different the 2nd time around, this is when I really went changed my game cause I was fed up and knew I had to. If I did have this one session taped, I would have a feeling that perhaps a few of you would have thought that I was too hard on her. I was very hard on her, about 100x harder than what you will see in the video im uploading right now. I know Drafty said to make her feel like shes going to die and I feel I achieved this. She was breathing really heavy, I felt she was scared just going by her body language while lunging her.

Its 12mins long.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 09:59 AM.
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post #135 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:01 AM
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I just want to reiterate, that horsemanship is not beating down a horse, being rude to a horse, spanking a horse, smacking a horse, being rough with a horse.

HOWEVER, sometimes there are dangerous situations that call for it. They should be few and far between however.

Horses sometimes need more ENERGY, which is where the swinging rope, and whip come in. You aren't beating them into submission, you are pushing them to move their feet, and backing down when they give you what you want.
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post #136 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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Greentree,

I wasnt planning on lunging her last night, my goal was to only work on leading but things got out of hand that I had to resort to lunging. And obviously I couldnt just run into the barn and grab my 30ft line.
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post #137 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:04 AM
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Where's the video? Didn't see a link.
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post #138 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
I just want to reiterate, that horsemanship is not beating down a horse, being rude to a horse, spanking a horse, smacking a horse, being rough with a horse.
Im not one for smacking or whipping a horse but I felt last night called for it. Mind you, I didnt start using the end of the lead as a whip and whipped her HQ a couple times until the 2nd time I lunged her (which was not recorded). Im really trying to put a stop to her biting. She pretty much tries it every day now and has been for the past week.

THis is the exact same situation as when I first got her, she would always turn her butt to me, daily, numerous times a day. She not only did it to me but everyone, the barn helper, my trainers. The first time my previous trainer met her, she kicked out at him. Thats how she greeted him.

It wasnt until I started carrying my 4ft lung whip with me to her paddock all the time and always had it in my hand that started to get her attention cause she knew she was going to be punished for it. When she turned her butt, I would immediately whip her HQ and hard. She didnt like it.

So the next day, she would immediately turn her butt to me, but this time she would immediately take off so i couldnt get her with the whip. It was all a game to her, you see. And you bet with the biting, this is all a gamer to her now.

It all changed and her butt turning to me completely went away when I started working with a new trainer and introduced her to the roundpen. She has never been in one and didnt like being in it. Not a reg size one but a small one, really small, so she couldnt get away as easy and pressure was built up a lot quicker and immensely in.

I dont want to have to roundpen her again, and I feel i shouldnt have to. Roundpenning should be a one or two time thing, not a thing done on an ongoing basis.

Quote:
Horses sometimes need more ENERGY, which is where the swinging rope, and whip come in. You aren't beating them into submission, you are pushing them to move their feet, and backing down when they give you what you want.
My horse needs a bit more pressure from me than others because she will try to get out of work. You will see in the video Im posting right now where if I dont keep constant pressure on her (in this case swinging of the lead) she will stop on the line and face me. This is a big no. So this is why in the 2nd time lunging her last night, I didnt swing the lead like you see in the video Im showing but I used it as a whip and constantly whipped the ground. I had pressure on her for the entire time lunging her (must have been at least 5 solid minutes) And I didnt release the pressure until we stopped.

She was scared alright because i was going bezerk and there was no release of pressure on her, while she was super tight on the line.
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Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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post #139 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post

My horse needs a bit more pressure from me than others because she will try to get out of work. You will see in the video Im posting right now where if I dont keep constant pressure on her (in this case swinging of the lead) she will stop on the line and face me. This is a big no. So this is why in the 2nd time lunging her last night, I didnt swing the lead like you see in the video Im showing but I used it as a whip and constantly whipped the ground. I had pressure on her for the entire time lunging her (must have been at least 5 solid minutes) And I didnt release the pressure until we stopped.

She was scared alright because i was going bezerk and there was no release of pressure on her, while she was super tight on the line.
See she's turning in because she's trying to make whatever it is stop. Horses are often trained that at the end of the session they face in. There is no need to manically whip the ground to get her to move. You should only do that once, and only after you've asked softer for her to move.

You seem to get frustrated quickly and dial it up to a 10 when it should be dialed slowly in order to use the least amount of pressure to get the job done, and even after you use higher energy you lower it and give her a blank slate each time. UNLESS she is being dangerous. To me, turning in and facing you is not dangerous, it's just a habit that you'd like to change. It needs to be changed properly, not by confusing the heck out of her. Habits are changed through clear communication. Getting rough does not equate to clear in this situation.
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post #140 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
See she's turning in because she's trying to make whatever it is stop. Horses are often trained that at the end of the session they face in. There is no need to manically whip the ground to get her to move. You should only do that once, and only after you've asked softer for her to move.

You seem to get frustrated quickly and dial it up to a 10 when it should be dialed slowly in order to use the least amount of pressure to get the job done, and even after you use higher energy you lower it and give her a blank slate each time. UNLESS she is being dangerous. To me, turning in and facing you is not dangerous, it's just a habit that you'd like to change. It needs to be changed properly, not by confusing the heck out of her. Habits are changed through clear communication. Getting rough does not equate to clear in this situation.
I get what youre saying but you have to understand where Im coming from. In the video you are going to see, I was far too light on her. Did I release pressure at times? Yes. But she takes advantage of it and will try to stop on the line. There was a few times where she did this. I had to get her going again and she refused to go so I really had to get on her with my voice.

Her stopping on the line when not requested is a big no no and is one thing i always try to anticipate her doing but its not always easy. I can sometimes pick it up. She does it with me because she thinks she can get out of work and she says when she stops working. It has nothing to do with her escaping pressure. This is what my trainer has said, the BO has said and my previous trainers have both said. She is trying to call the shots when on the line and said I need to get on her with the extra bit of pressure so that she doesnt try this.

This is why I really wish you guys could see the footage that I didnt record. I do believe it was the best way to go about it. Ive always been told that im not assertive enough when lunging and when correcting, well even though I have gotten noticably better, I feel last night when I lunged her the 2nd time, I reached a level I havent before in terms of assertiveness. She did not once even try to stop on the line without me asking, not once. The only thing that was on her mind was that I was putting immense pressure on her to move her feet really fast and right now. She didnt even think about trying to stop because she was scared out of her daylights.

I will give an example. When I was lunging her I had immediate flashbacks from a few months ago at the old barn where one of the boarders ponys who was being lunged attempted to kick out at my mare but thankfully didnt connect. My trainer who was working with me at the time (we were all in the arena), saw it and absolutely flipped out. She didnt tell the boarder, she demanded her to lung her pony really hard, into the ground. She was ****ed, she had fire in her, I liked it.

So the boarder immediately eats up all the slack in his lead (so that his lead was pretty much horizontal from the pony halter to the hand of the boarder and lunged him so fast and so hard in what must have been no bigger than a 12-15ft circle for about a good 5mins. Constant pressure, pony was going as fast as he could and running as if a coyote was chasing him and he was about to get eaten. The pony learned his lesson from it right away.

I lunged my mare just like that, last night. This is the VERY first time I lunged her to that degree but I feel it is needed because I obviously had to step it up.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 10:31 AM.
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