A couple questions - Page 15 - The Horse Forum
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post #141 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
I will give an example. When I was lunging her I had immediate flashbacks from a few months ago at the old barn where one of the boarders ponys who was being lunged attempted to kick out at my mare but thankfully didnt connect. My trainer who was working with me at the time (we were all in the arena), saw it and flipped out. She told the boarder to lung her pony really hard, like into the ground.

So the boarder immediately eats up the slack in his lead (so that his lead was pretty much horizontal from the pony halter to the hand of the boarder and lunged him so fast and so hard in what must have been no bigger than a 12-15ft circle for about a good 5mins. The pony learned his lesson from it right away.

I lunged my mare just like that, last night.
.........No.

if a horse kicks out at another horse, lunging it "into the ground" does nothing. A quick correct of sending it away quickly or having it yield it's butt to you would be a better way of fixing that.

If you work your horse into a frenzy with no slack on the line, they are not only going to learn to LEAN on you, but it can be hard on their joints, and has absolutely no point whatsoever.

Lunging shouldn't be a punishment, ever. It's a tool of teaching.

And if a horse feels the need to kick out, 1. they are too close to the other horse, and 2. it's a herd dynamic issue that needs to be nipped in the bud, not dragged out.
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post #142 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
.........No.

if a horse kicks out at another horse, lunging it "into the ground" does nothing. A quick correct of sending it away quickly or having it yield it's butt to you would be a better way of fixing that.

If you work your horse into a frenzy with no slack on the line, they are not only going to learn to LEAN on you, but it can be hard on their joints, and has absolutely no point whatsoever.

Lunging shouldn't be a punishment, ever. It's a tool of teaching.

And if a horse feels the need to kick out, 1. they are too close to the other horse, and 2. it's a herd dynamic issue that needs to be nipped in the bud, not dragged out.
I didnt have any whips or carrot sticks on me last night. When she reared, and nipped my arm, I wasnt going to just send her away. What good does that do? I can chase her away a few steps then get her to yield her HQ and face me but it doesnt do anything with her. Why?

Because this is what I used to do, all the time, infact this was my initial way of correcting her. She got so used to the routine that she knew she how she was going to get corrected. But trainers saw that it was completely ineffective on her because she just shrugs it off, it doesnt phase her. Chasing her out and yielding her will get her attention for all but 5 seconds and then she carries on. Trainers have said its pointless on her and i might as well just not do anything, thats how little of an effect it has on her.

For lighter stuff, sure I can continue to correct her by chasing her away and yielding her. But when its serious stuff like this, trainers said I need to move her feet and fast. Doesnt matter where you are, what you are doing, you move their feet now and with purpose.
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post #143 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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post #144 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
I didnt have any whips or carrot sticks on me last night. When she reared, and nipped my arm, I wasnt going to just send her away. What good does that do? I can chase her away a few steps then get her to yield her HQ and face me but it doesnt do anything with her. Why?

Because this is what I used to do, all the time, infact this was my initial way of correcting her. She got so used to the routine that she knew she how she was going to get corrected. But trainers saw that it was completely ineffective on her because she just shrugs it off, it doesnt phase her. Chasing her out and yielding her will get her attention for all but 5 seconds and then she carries on. Trainers have said its pointless on her and i might as well just not do anything, thats how little of an effect it has on her.

For lighter stuff, sure I can continue to correct her by chasing her away and yielding her. But when its serious stuff like this, trainers said I need to move her feet and fast. Doesnt matter where you are, what you are doing, you move their feet now and with purpose.
Rearing and biting is not the same as kicking out at another horse.

The correction for rearing is different than it is for biting, than it is for charging, than it is for snatching a foot, than it is for leaning on you for picking up feet.

You can't use one correction for every circumstance. That does nothing, and sounds like that is what you were doing.

Every correction HAS to have a purpose. It has to be clear to the horse what you want, how you want it, and for some 'corrections' they do not accomplish that.

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
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post #145 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Keep in mind that shoulders were much better last night, head was better but like I said, I still have to work on keeping my eyes forward and not on her. When my eyes look at her, guess where my head is going? Thats right, down. But Im confident I can fix my eyes, its just some adjusting.

My goal for tonight is to not look at her when shes by my side unless she gets in my way. Keep my eyes forward as if im driving down a road.
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post #146 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 11:05 AM
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I have been reading through and I see your frustration and it could possibly be translating to your horse even if you aren't doing it on purpose.

You are getting better, maybe and this is just a suggestion you should take a couple of days off training and just enjoy your horse rather then worrying to much about this and that.
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post #147 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Keep in mind that shoulders were much better last night, head was better but like I said, I still have to work on keeping my eyes forward and not on her. When my eyes look at her, guess where my head is going? Thats right, down. But Im confident I can fix my eyes, its just some adjusting.

My goal for tonight is to not look at her when shes by my side unless she gets in my way. Keep my eyes forward as if im driving down a road.
Yes Im aware of that and Ive been starting to link what corrections go with what behaviour.

But like I said, if I had my full whip on me last night, then that whip would have gone across her front legs before they came back to the ground. It would have given me enough length to reach her legs without me stepping forward in case she kicked her front legs. Then I would have just carried on with whatever. Because of this me not lunging her, she wouldnt have kicked out, so kicking out would be out the window.

For her biting, I would have whacked her on the muzzle with the handle of the whip but by the time I turned around after she nipped me, her head was already way back in anticapation to avoid my whack. She was a good 3ft back and way out of arms reach. She bites, immediately knows shes going to get a whack on the mouth and is already starting to pull her head back so i cant connect.
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post #148 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 11:13 AM
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Again take it or leave it:

0:25 did you ask her to yield her hind from you? If you didn't, you should correct it quietly by asking her to move her hind the opposite direction one step. Start with low energy and increase as needed.

0:46 your halt was abrupt with no preparation as to you were halting. They aren't mind readers. Horses do read body language though, and your body language did nothing to indicate your intent.

And you didn't correct her again.

You're leading much better but you're still looking down.

And at 0:48 she does it again.

Better halt at 2:00

Not so good halt on her part at 2:10, and you petted her so now she thinks it's okay to barge past you.

I would have corrected by spinning the rope (not manically, just enough to get her to yield from it) which asks her to back away from it, back to where she SHOULD have stopped. Then I would loop around and try the stop again.

Better halt at 2:16

Not a good correction after she moves though (that correction is more like one that should be used if a horse is leaning/moving into you, or going to bite you, and she was moving away from you, by swinging her butt). It taught her nothing. I would have gotten infront of her, at an angle, and backed her butt up at least 5 feet, then stand still and expect her to do the same. If she didn't, back her up again and try again. Stand for 30 seconds, then move on, once she does stand still.

Good halt at 2:45

Now she's barging into you after, so that's when I'd use the elbow, but honestly I'd snap the lead and get her OUT of your space. Maybe I'd make her yield her shoulders to me, maybe she'd get backed up, maybe I'd send her to the right fast. Barging is corrected by creating space or getting after her.

3:25 she swings her butt again.

3:36 and again

4:00 she'd get whacked and lunged on the spot, as you did, but you do it so messily. The leading hand rope should not be swinging around. You should be less flinchy. Poker face, dude.

4:26 No. Do not get into a tugging match with her, as that does nothing. Continue to lunge her until she's going quietly, then attempt to lead her again.

This is WAY different to lunging into the ground, as that 'trainer' recommended.

She was quiet at 4:30... why did you bop her again? If it's out of petty anger, cut that crap right now. You do not take your anger out on your horse.

I like that you sent her to be lunged again but you standing in the middle like one of those ballerinas on the jewelry boxes is not clear communication. You must have your chest facing her hind end, and your leading hand open for her to move into.

The reason she keeps stopping is because your physical body is infront of her shoulder on the circle. Thus you are blocking her forward movement. You need to physically be somewhere inbetween her ribcage and hip.

5:08, she's actually lunging happily. Why did you start spinning the line again? She made no indication of slowing down. If you want her to pick up the pace you ask once nicely then you get after her. But IMOP she was going nicely and at a good forward pace. You gave her release, but then took it away rudely.

5:15 look at where your body is in relation to hers. You're confusing her by asking her to stop but telling her to go.

5:23, good use of opening hand.

BTW if you constantly use a cue (spinning the rope, smacking a whip) with no breaks, she will learn to ignore it. Then what will you use? Only use it when it's needed. A lot of the time, it wasn't needed.

I'm going to stop critiquing there, because the rest is the same as I've said.

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
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post #149 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
Again take it or leave it:
At 4:30, she actually was about to take a step into me so i caught it and quickly got her to change her mind by wiggling the rope. It was not an extra bop, I dont not do stuff like this.

At 5:08, she was actually starting to slow down as she was coming around the corner.

Like I said, eyes still need work but my goal right now is to pretend like im driving and that should keep my eyes forward constantly and will help some more with the head.

As for her swinging her HQ out, yes I agree i should have corrected her for it. I normally do, not sure why i let it slide.

As for me facing her, i was told by my past trainer to have my chest face directly to her barrel, directly parrelel. Now obviously you have to readjust on the go as they pick up and slow their pace, so at times i could come across into the shoulder area. Trust me, if i am this is 100% unintentional! I always try my best to stay out of the shoulder area.

So my chest should be facing the back of her barrel and HQ instead? parrelel to it?

I should mention that my past trainer never taught me the shoulder (to stop) and shoulder to the HQ to drive method. I didnt learn this until my trainer now and my mare actually didnt learn it until a couple weeks ago.

All my past trainers taught me was to be 100% parrelel to their barrel, dead on.

Ill keep saying it, but if i all of a sudden stop spinning the lead, she will stop on the line or get to a walk.
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post #150 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 11:38 AM
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This is my crappily lunging my atm-lame horse (I am lightly lunging to see where the lameness is coming from, and how bad it is)


Notice how I am not chasing my horse around. My hand is open slightly, my chest is always facing where I told you. He's moving forward nicely. My whip is up, but it's not active, it's there incase I need to use it.

The reason I walk around with my horse is because he's older and had stifle issues in the past so using my doctored-up lungeline (two leadropes tied together) I walk around with him so his space to move is bigger. This is something you could do when you only have your leadrope with you, so it's not such a tiny circle for her to work on.

Anyway, notice my position.
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