A couple questions - Page 16 - The Horse Forum
 1109Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #151 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 12:39 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,838
• Horses: 12
I think she is very good and compliant as much as she can be. The figure eight leading in the first part was very good. I see your posture was concentrated on straight, tall, and square - you could work on combining inflections in your posture to communicate (ie body language). Not strictly always one way or the other. Upping and lowering your energy (or 'life') as called for.

I agree you stopped very abruptly some of the time. At other times your stopping was ok but she stopped only her head and front exactly with you, and therefore swung out a bit behind. Perhaps saying to yourself (and letting your body follow) Aaaaand .... ssssstop will give her a bit more time and clarity.

Your rope handling seemed much better than the first video; however, too much - more than is needed and the pressure of it telling her she still is not giving what you want. Work on release. The swinging of the tail need not be continuous - it is pressure - and a cue, and should be released the instant she obliges. No need and not good to continue to swing if you ask for a trot and she is trotting. Let up, even letting more line out to her for a bit larger and more comfortable circle.

I felt her little pop up rear early in the lunging, was one of combined youthful exuberance, and mostly resentment. As if she was saying "I am doing it, what more do you want from me ?!?!?!?!" My gelding Dewey, at 19 years old, is like that. I find that going lighter, rather than increasing pressure works best for him.

If she will start off with just a point, or the beginning of the swing of the rope tail, stop immediately, just let the tail fall out of the swing, don't finish it. This is part of learning to read your horse.

Very good overall, the ending leading she was again very compliant, ears not as good as the first leading. But she didn't hold anything against you. She may be green but she can teach you as well as learn from you. And visa versa.

Great job overall. Loosen up. Do you ever dance at home? Think you are moving a lot? Watch yourself in the mirror, your movements may not be as big as you think.
Skyseternalangel and Hoofpic like this.


Last edited by anndankev; 10-16-2015 at 12:47 PM. Reason: typo
anndankev is offline  
post #152 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 12:42 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 17,077
• Horses: 1
Another craptastic lunging video, but from my perspective. Perhaps this will help you with the positioning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAUBxE7dAN8

I don't push my horse atm (usually I'm after him if he doesn't move) because this was 3 days after his dead-lame episode, and I wanted to see what he was capable of.

But notice the leadline, you can't see my whip hand but it's empty and I just have the slack, and the camera angle is where my chest is facing.


BTW I TAUGHT MY HORSE HOW TO PROPERLY LUNGE, MYSELF. So I know what I'm talking about... he tries the facing in thing too.. drives me nuts, but I correct it.

Also notice how in this video, all he needed was for me to lower my energy and tell him whoa. I didn't have to block his shoulder, or raise the rope. You adapt to whatever your horse throws at you.
anndankev and Hoofpic like this.

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
Skyseternalangel is offline  
post #153 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
This is my crappily lunging my atm-lame horse (I am lightly lunging to see where the lameness is coming from, and how bad it is)

Thursday 15th Oct RIGHT - YouTube

Notice how I am not chasing my horse around. My hand is open slightly, my chest is always facing where I told you. He's moving forward nicely. My whip is up, but it's not active, it's there incase I need to use it.

The reason I walk around with my horse is because he's older and had stifle issues in the past so using my doctored-up lungeline (two leadropes tied together) I walk around with him so his space to move is bigger. This is something you could do when you only have your leadrope with you, so it's not such a tiny circle for her to work on.

Anyway, notice my position.
Yes I notice your position is faced towards her HQ more than her barrel. Well blame my past trainers for preaching to me that i should face parrelel to her barrel. Now i know its better not to so that i dont unintentionally get into her shoulder area.

This should be a smooth adjustment for me.

So basically i should be standing parrel to the back half of her body.

Up until i started working with my trainer now, Ive never even heard of driving from facing the HQ and stopping when facing the shoulder. Im just shocked not one of my past trainers brought this up to me, and thats simply because they didnt teach it.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #154 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 12:57 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cambridge, MN
Posts: 893
• Horses: 2
Skyseternalangel has made some great observations, particularly on how your body language is confusing your horse while lunging. A couple of my own thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
2:45 Now she's barging into you after, so that's when I'd use the elbow, but honestly I'd snap the lead and get her OUT of your space. Maybe I'd make her yield her shoulders to me, maybe she'd get backed up, maybe I'd send her to the right fast. Barging is corrected by creating space or getting after her.
Yes, backing is an excellent response to some behaviors, and you don't seem to do much of it. That would be a good thing to work on. One step, then two, but ultimately you should be able to jog forward and your horse should be backing away in a straight line fast enough to keep pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
4:00 she'd get whacked and lunged on the spot, as you did, but you do it so messily. The leading hand rope should not be swinging around. You should be less flinchy. Poker face, dude.
You mentioned that your horse doesn't like being asked to move away from you when you turn into her. On this little rodeo that starts at 3:59, the two of you get in a squabble about it. Maybe all you needed to do was give her a sharp elbow or a whack with the flat of your hand THE SECOND SHE DIDN"T GET OUT OF YOUR WAY. This should have been over before you ever got to the rearing part. If turning into the horse is a known problem, you need to be prepared to counter it. By the time you got around to lunging, it was too late for any kind of lesson.

Also, is the far right of the screen the way back to her stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
She was quiet at 4:30... why did you bop her again? If it's out of petty anger, cut that crap right now. You do not take your anger out on your horse.
It's fine to hit your horse when hitting is appropriate. It's never OK to get mad. I very much wish I could say it's never happened to me. Your goal as a trainer is to have a reaction for anything your horse might do that turns unwanted behavior into a chance for praise. For example, if my horse wants to go out the gate instead of doing another lap, we trot some tiny circles, and I tell him what a wonderful boy he is for doing such a good job of trotting those tiny circles, and then give him a chance to start another lap. As Clinton Anderson says, "frustration begins where knowledge ends." Your horse is not trying to embarrass you or ruin your life. Have your answers ahead of time so you work through the issues without losing your cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
5:08, she's actually lunging happily. Why did you start spinning the line again? She made no indication of slowing down. If you want her to pick up the pace you ask once nicely then you get after her.
Yes, spinning the rope is nagging. You are irritating her in a very pointless manner.

One other thing. You might want to try putting a piece of duct tape on your lead rope, at least three feet from the snap, and practice not putting your hand past the tape. You are sort of choking up on the lead, especially when you turn, and micromanaging your horse's head. Just leave the rope slack and make your turn and expect the horse to follow you. If she doesn't, you can fix it then.
anndankev likes this.

Last edited by Joel Reiter; 10-16-2015 at 01:06 PM.
Joel Reiter is offline  
post #155 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
I think she is very good and compliant as much as she can be. The figure eight leading in the first part was very good. I see your posture was concentrated on straight, tall, and square - you could work on combining inflections in your posture to communicate (ie body language). Not strictly always one way or the other. Upping and lowering your energy (or 'life') as called for


I agree you stopped very abruptly some of the time. At other times your stopping was ok but she stopped only her head and front exactly with you, and therefore swung out a bit behind. Perhaps saying to yourself (and letting your body follow) Aaaaand .... ssssstop will give her a bit more time and clarity.
I plan on using more energy as I get her to woah and walk on. One of my past trainers (who was the first person to teach me leading) said when I stop, do it firm and quick, stomping the feet helps. She told me that if a horse is fully paying attn to you, they should stop when you stop, regardless if you do it abruptly or not.

This is a big reason why I stop like that because she preached to me that your stop should be firm and bold.

Quote:
Your rope handling seemed much better than the first video; however, too much - more than is needed and the pressure of it telling her she still is not giving what you want. Work on release. The swinging of the tail need not be continuous - it is pressure - and a cue, and should be released the instant she obliges. No need and not good to continue to swing if you ask for a trot and she is trotting. Let up, even letting more line out to her for a bit larger and more comfortable circle.
Again, comes back to my past trainer who did teach me pressure and release (ive gotten a lot better in knowing when to give release), but was a firm believer that when correcting, you keep the pressure up until you are done. If I let off the pressure once she trots, she will take it as if shes just doing another liesurely daily trot. Did I want to release pressure? Of course I did.

Quote:
I felt her little pop up rear early in the lunging, was one of combined youthful exuberance, and mostly resentment. As if she was saying "I am doing it, what more do you want from me ?!?!?!?!" My gelding Dewey, at 19 years old, is like that. I find that going lighter, rather than increasing pressure works best for him.
I felt her kick was towards me with the intention of injuring me.

Quote:
If she will start off with just a point, or the beginning of the swing of the rope tail, stop immediately, just let the tail fall out of the swing, don't finish it. This is part of learning to read your horse.
Yes she starts off with just a point every single time and when i lunge her, i normally do the beginning of a swing of the lead and dont bother finishing it because shes already going. Often I just need to raise the hand and she goes, then i put it back down. Lunging her with very minumal pressure is actually one of her better qualities.

If I was to show you a video me of lunging her how I normally do, I think you guys would be quite surprised. She is very very good and (even though I normally use a carrot stick instead) I normally dont have to use it much once I get her going. Once she gets going, I release all pressure. I will do this one of these days so you guys have an idea. But because i use very little pressure when lunging her, she takes advantage of it by purposely trying to stop when she wants.



Quote:
Very good overall, the ending leading she was again very compliant, ears not as good as the first leading. But she didn't hold anything against you. She may be green but she can teach you as well as learn from you. And visa versa.
I did more leading into her side again right after to see if she was better behaved and as you saw, she was much more cooperative in moving over as i turned to her side.

Quote:
Loosen up. Do you ever dance at home? Think you are moving a lot? Watch yourself in the mirror, your movements may not be as big as you think.
Hate to say it, but this comes back to my past trainer again who insisted that I keep my feet absolutely planted when lunging except for only turning. She said to never walk towards the horse when lunging as they see it as pressure and find it threatening.

Now if you saw the 2nd time that I lunged her last night, much different story. I was actually doing little tight circles with my feet
anndankev likes this.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 01:09 PM.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #156 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:06 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 17,077
• Horses: 1
When she turns in when you lunge her:


That's what I do, before realigning to my horse and lunging him again.

We repeat, until he halts as he did in both those videos.

I'm teaching him where I'd like him to be, when I ask for whoa. I'm not chasing him away for not listening, as that would just confuse him.

**notice he is NOT crossing over properly when I ask him to yield his shoulder, I'm not forcing the issue because he is not sound)

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
Skyseternalangel is offline  
post #157 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:07 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 17,077
• Horses: 1
And just a moment of how we end our lunging session:


Notice how he is seeking me out, but respectful of where I asked him to keep his feet.

This is what happens when you have clear communication and respect. It can start to look like a bond

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
Skyseternalangel is offline  
post #158 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:08 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,974
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
I think she is very good and compliant as much as she can be. The figure eight leading in the first part was very good. I see your posture was concentrated on straight, tall, and square - you could work on combining inflections in your posture to communicate (ie body language). Not strictly always one way or the other. Upping and lowering your energy (or 'life') as called for


I agree you stopped very abruptly some of the time. At other times your stopping was ok but she stopped only her head and front exactly with you, and therefore swung out a bit behind. Perhaps saying to yourself (and letting your body follow) Aaaaand .... ssssstop will give her a bit more time and clarity.
I plan on using more energy as I get her to woah and walk on. One of my past trainers (who was the first person to teach me leading) said when I stop, do it firm and quick, stomping the feet helps. She told me that if a horse is fully paying attn to you, they should stop when you stop, regardless if you do it abruptly or not.

This is a big reason why I stop like that because she preached to me that your stop should be firm and bold.

Quote:
Your rope handling seemed much better than the first video; however, too much - more than is needed and the pressure of it telling her she still is not giving what you want. Work on release. The swinging of the tail need not be continuous - it is pressure - and a cue, and should be released the instant she obliges. No need and not good to continue to swing if you ask for a trot and she is trotting. Let up, even letting more line out to her for a bit larger and more comfortable circle.
Again, comes back to my past trainer who did teach me pressure and release (ive gotten a lot better in knowing when to give release), but was a firm believer that when correcting, you keep the pressure up until you are done. If I let off the pressure once she trots, she will take it as if shes just doing another liesurely daily trot. Did I want to release pressure? Of course I did.

Quote:
I felt her little pop up rear early in the lunging, was one of combined youthful exuberance, and mostly resentment. As if she was saying "I am doing it, what more do you want from me ?!?!?!?!" My gelding Dewey, at 19 years old, is like that. I find that going lighter, rather than increasing pressure works best for him.
I felt her kick was towards me with the intention of injuring me.

Quote:
If she will start off with just a point, or the beginning of the swing of the rope tail, stop immediately, just let the tail fall out of the swing, don't finish it. This is part of learning to read your horse.
Yes she starts off with just a point every single time and when i lunge her, i normally do the beginning of a swing of the lead and dont bother finishing it because shes already going. Lunging her with very minumal pressure is actually one of her better qualities.

If I was to show you a video me of lunging her how I normally do, I think you guys would be quite surprised. She is very very good and (even though I normally use a carrot stick instead) I normally dont have to use it much once I get her going. Once she gets going, I release all pressure.



Quote:
Very good overall, the ending leading she was again very compliant, ears not as good as the first leading. But she didn't hold anything against you. She may be green but she can teach you as well as learn from you. And visa versa.
I did more leading into her side again right after to see if she was better behaved and as you saw, she was much more cooperative in moving over as i turned to her side.

Quote:
Loosen up. Do you ever dance at home? Think you are moving a lot? Watch yourself in the mirror, your movements may not be as big as you think.
Hate to say it, but this comes back to my past trainer again who insisted that I keep my feet absolutely planted when lunging except for only turning. She said to never walk towards the horse when lunging.
I would forget about your past trainers as they don't seem to be helping at all.
I see a frustrated horse and frustrated owner.
Rainaisabelle is offline  
post #159 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Reiter View Post
Skyseternalangel has made some great observations, particularly on how your body language is confusing your horse while lunging. A couple of my own thoughts:
I will make it a permanent habit now to have my chest face her HQ and stand further back to the back half of her body vs dead centre towards the barrel. This should prevent 100% from me untentionally getting near her shoulder area.


Quote:
Yes, backing is an excellent response to some behaviors, and you don't seem to do much of it. That would be a good thing to work on. One step, then two, but ultimately you should be able to jog forward and your horse should be backing away in a straight line fast enough to keep pace.
I have done a lot of backing with her but first she hates it and actually brings out the worst in her cause she is very resistant in backing. Past trainers noticed this when working with her and said to only back her when needed and NOT as a correction. They said they dont want her to see backing as a correction cause in the saddle, she was taught backing as a good thing and was rewarded so if you back her all the time when correcting, when she gets back in the saddle she will be confused.

So backing her only when i absolutely have to has been an adjustment ive made over the past couple months.

Backing her normally is great, she backs up every time with barely any pressure. If im backing her with her on my side, all I do is put my hand on the snap and she starts to move back. If she doesnt, then i just move the snap back a bit with no pressure in the lead and shes already moving back.

Its when you move her back aggresively, 10-20ft with constant in her face pressure that really agitates her. She will resist and try to bite even if you try to back her 20 ft from putting back pressure on the snap, she will physically curl her head downwards to block you from getting a hold of the snap.

Past trainer quickly saw this and insisted I do not do excessive backing with her and especially not aggresive backing. They said backing her for any distance greater than 3 or 4 steps is pointless, serves no purpose and will only get you an angry irritated horse.

Quote:
You mentioned that your horse doesn't like being asked to move away from you when you turn into her. On this little rodeo that starts at 3:59, the two of you get in a squabble about it. Maybe all you needed to do was give her a sharp elbow or a whack with the flat of your hand THE SECOND SHE DIDN"T GET OUT OF YOUR WAY.
I gave her a quick elbow, not hard but enough to tell her to get over. She took offense to it.

Quote:
Also, is the far right of the screen the way back to her stall?
No, where the camera was is the way back to her pasture paddock.


Quote:
It's fine to hit your horse when hitting is appropriate. It's never OK to get mad.
I didnt get mad, I got firm. I never yell, my volume in my voice will come up when i get firm though but not to the point of yelling. I wanted to get big and my voice helps.


Quote:
Have your answers ahead of time so you work through the issues without losing your cool.
I dont think i was losing my cool. I know its hard to describe, but because I learn a lot and pick up a lot from watching and observing my past trainers and my current one and how they work with horses and my own. Ive been working to follow their leads, everything in terms of body language to how they firm they get on the lunge line, etc.

When I first started I was as soft as butter when lunging. I couldnt get her to even go anywhere on the line. Trainer basically put it, she isnt taking me seriously because im not firm and assertive enough. She would always be able to change directions and choose which way she wanted to go and i wasnt able to stop or prevent her. Now, thanks to previous trainer who taught me how to be much more assertive, (and you can see a couple times in the video where she tried to change direction), Im able to get her to stop right away and go the direction i want her to go. Being a lot firmer with the lead and my body language was the biggest factor. Before I was way too casual, my tone of voice was too light and when I needed to up things, I didnt up them enough.

Two of my past trainers (one was a Parreli trainer) are very hard on their horses when correcting. If you think Im losing my cool in my video (again im not), then you wouldnt want to see my past trainers. They didnt lose their cool but they got big and firm in body language and tone of voice. I learned a lot from observing how they handle horses. They may have been hard when needed but it only made the horse better,

Quote:
One other thing. You might want to try putting a piece of duct tape on your lead rope, at least three feet from the snap, and practice not putting your hand past the tape. You are sort of choking up on the lead, especially when you turn, and micromanaging your horse's head. Just leave the rope slack and make your turn and expect the horse to follow you. If she doesn't, you can fix it then.
Current trainer wants me to hold her lead 8-12" from the snap and no longer.
This was perhaps the very first adjustment she got me to do. I used to always lead her with 2ft slack in the lead (which my past trainer made me do).

When I first started leading (not with her at this time), I led with 8-12" slack from the snap, just enough slack for them to lower their head (not to the ground but enough).

Then previous trainer said to allow a lot more slack in the lead so I adjusted to having 2ft slack to the snap. This carried on for 3 months.

Now my current trainer wanted me to go back to how i was doing it before.

See, this is the effects of having switch trainers so many times (untintentionally of course). Every trainer has their own preferences, I get told one thing by one, then something entirely different by the other. But now that I have one trainer and only one trainer to work with for now on, it really helps sticking with one mindset and teaching method.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 01:40 PM.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #160 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 01:36 PM
Showing
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 17,077
• Horses: 1
For the love of all that is cherished on this earth, stop listening to your past trainer. From what you've told us, they lacked in horsemanship

You need to start over, not recall anything from past trainers. READ your horse, work with your current (better) trainer, and go from there. Take my advice if you want, I don't care either way because there's a million ways to do one thing, but to ME if a horse hates it, then that is not a reason to avoid it.

Have you worked on her backing up from the littlest pressure on a lead NOT in a corrective situation? have you worked on her giving her head to the littlest pressure not in a corrective situation?

If not? You have not prepared your horse. Even corrective actions must be worked with before they are used as corrections.

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
Skyseternalangel is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A couple questions. helterskelter Horse Nutrition 2 07-03-2013 05:38 PM
I have a couple questions..... WesternRider88 Draft Horses 10 06-11-2013 04:17 PM
Just a couple of questions TheMayoMat Horse Health 14 10-24-2012 11:44 PM
A couple of questions. Wes70 Horse Training 6 09-18-2012 08:45 PM
Couple of questions Solon Horse Forum Support Help Desk 1 02-08-2010 06:44 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome