A couple questions - Page 19 - The Horse Forum
 1109Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #181 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
It's what I find works best to communicate what I want. If your horse is going in a frenzy then you can alter your body to relieve pressure in different ways.

See how it works for your mare. It's going to be hard to get at first, but think of making a pizza slice with the lungeline and your whip as the sides. You make up the point, your horse is the crust...

Or if you aren't into food, just think of a triangle. You always form a triangle with your horse. If you give them more line, it's just a bigger triangle. If you take up more line, it's a smaller triangle. But it's always an isosceles triangle. Your hand (the lungeline) should match your leg (which is your leg as if you are riding)
I want to try this tonight but feel I shouldnt since ive worked with here the past 3 days (shes probably been ridden at least once as well by the trainer) and we have a lesson tomorrow morning. Ive already made my trainer aware of what we are working on. Im curious to hear what she has planned for us to do.

I still cant figure out why my mare takes offense to me coming into her side and making her turn as i turn. I do it gently but very direct, head up, shoulders up, she knows where im going, but she blocks me.

And you know what, the sad thing is that I was planning on taking a 3rd video last night of me putting her back in her paddock and unhaltering her. Ive been working with her over the past week on her not fussing when I take off her halter. She will always fuss and throw her head up as its about to come off. But over the past week, I would undo her halter until the part where she will throw her head up, so then ive got her to woah, I freeze with the halter...and when she is more relaxed or lowers her head, I proceed taking the halter off. Sometimes it takes 10secs, sometimes 2mins. I just patiently wait.

If she fusses more, i say woah again and freeze. When the halter finally comes off fully without her fussing, I immeidately put the halter back on and do it all over again.

I did it 8 times on Sat, 5 times on Sun, Ive put it on and off until basically she is able to stand quietly to have the halter off. Then I will often do it one more time after just to be sure. I reward her. But this is something I feel I should really reward her with lots of praise and petting to make it really stand out that shes doing what I ask. I basically do this everyday. Its not that she doesnt know how to stand quietly when being unhaltered, its just that shes being a brat with me.

The last couple days shes been good, didnt have to repeat more than once or twice cause when the halter started to become undone, and reach that point where she would always fuss, she would relax a bit more and off the halter went.

Trainer said it wouldnt be a bad idea to use treats for the next while as well, to help praise her. Thoughts?

She said i could use it as a reward once the halter comes off or as a distraction tool for during the halter coming off.
anndankev likes this.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-16-2015 at 05:08 PM.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #182 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 05:02 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 6,990
• Horses: 3
Hoofpic, somewhere up there you said, "I'm nervous to see her tonight because of yesterday."

If you truly feel that way, you should skip a day going to the barn. You are setting yourself - and your horse - up for failure. Your nerves mean hesitating, overthinking, doubting yourself.

Sometimes I try to fit in a ride during the workday. If I plan to ride at 1pm, and have a terrible meeting at noon, I have to seriously think about whether it's worth it to go to the barn when I am in "a mood"- whether irritated, distracted, frustrated, upset, whatever. Or, if I was planning to ride and I know my heart is beating and pulse racing because of an interaction at work, I might abandon riding and just quickly groom and save the riding for another day.

The attitude that you bring to the barn affects your body language, which as you know really affects your horse. Maybe skip a night, or do something that you know will be really easy for both of you so you can have a confidence building night before diving back in to the harder stuff. What's the cheesy phrase, "it's a marathon, not a sprint..."
egrogan is offline  
post #183 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrogan View Post
Hoofpic, somewhere up there you said, "I'm nervous to see her tonight because of yesterday."

If you truly feel that way, you should skip a day going to the barn. You are setting yourself - and your horse - up for failure. Your nerves mean hesitating, overthinking, doubting yourself.

Sometimes I try to fit in a ride during the workday. If I plan to ride at 1pm, and have a terrible meeting at noon, I have to seriously think about whether it's worth it to go to the barn when I am in "a mood"- whether irritated, distracted, frustrated, upset, whatever. Or, if I was planning to ride and I know my heart is beating and pulse racing because of an interaction at work, I might abandon riding and just quickly groom and save the riding for another day.

The attitude that you bring to the barn affects your body language, which as you know really affects your horse. Maybe skip a night, or do something that you know will be really easy for both of you so you can have a confidence building night before diving back in to the harder stuff. What's the cheesy phrase, "it's a marathon, not a sprint..."
Sorry i worded it wrong, wouldnt say im nervous about seeing her tonight but more curiuous.

If this happened 3 months ago then yes id be nervous but im really comfortable around her now.

I was confused last night on the way home but i woke up with a clear and reset mind.

Youre right though, if i ever feel im too unfocused or annoyed, i would no go cause i dont want her rubbing off on my mindset.

This is why ive made it a habit seeing her everyday. I feel it helps us. Once she goes in a herd (any day now) trainer said it should help with her attitude as well cause im no longer her hers, her new mates will be.
greentree likes this.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #184 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 05:45 PM
Started
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW PA
Posts: 2,285
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
I want to try this tonight but feel I shouldnt since ive worked with here the past 3 days (shes probably been ridden at least once as well by the trainer) and we have a lesson tomorrow morning. Ive already made my trainer aware of what we are working on. Im curious to hear what she has planned for us to do.

I still cant figure out why my mare takes offense to me coming into her side and making her turn as i turn. I do it gently but very direct, head up, shoulders up, she knows where im going, but she blocks me.

And you know what, the sad thing is that I was planning on taking a 3rd video last night of me putting her back in her paddock and unhaltering her. Ive been working with her over the past week on her not fussing when I take off her halter. She will always fuss and throw her head up as its about to come off. But over the past week, I would undo her halter until the part where she will throw her head up, so then ive got her to woah, I freeze with the halter...and when she is more relaxed or lowers her head, I proceed taking the halter off. Sometimes it takes 10secs, sometimes 2mins. I just patiently wait.

If she fusses more, i say woah again and freeze. When the halter finally comes off fully without her fussing, I immeidately put the halter back on and do it all over again.

I did it 8 times on Sat, 5 times on Sun, Ive put it on and off until basically she is able to stand quietly to have the halter off. Then I will often do it one more time after just to be sure. I reward her. But this is something I feel I should really reward her with lots of praise and petting to make it really stand out that shes doing what I ask. I basically do this everyday. Its not that she doesnt know how to stand quietly when being unhaltered, its just that shes being a brat with me.

The last couple days shes been good, didnt have to repeat more than once or twice cause when the halter started to become undone, and reach that point where she would always fuss, she would relax a bit more and off the halter went.

Trainer said it wouldnt be a bad idea to use treats for the next while as well, to help praise her. Thoughts?

She said i could use it as a reward once the halter comes off or as a distraction tool for during the halter coming off.
Gah! Why keep taking the halter off and putting it back on after she got it right? Horses learn from the release of pressure. You keep putting the pressure back on after she gets it RIGHT. STOP.

take off the halter when she doesn't fuss, pet her, say, 'atta girl', and give a treat.

Five minutes of good handling and training is far better that 25 minutes of confusing crap. Because you WILL end up having to fix all the problems that the confusing crap caused.

BE that as it may, she is a nice little mare, and you really want to do right.
sarahfromsc is offline  
post #185 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
I want to try this tonight but feel I shouldnt since ive worked with here the past 3 days (shes probably been ridden at least once as well by the trainer) and we have a lesson tomorrow morning. Ive already made my trainer aware of what we are working on. Im curious to hear what she has planned for us to do.

I still cant figure out why my mare takes offense to me coming into her side and making her turn as i turn. I do it gently but very direct, head up, shoulders up, she knows where im going, but she blocks me.

And you know what, the sad thing is that I was planning on taking a 3rd video last night of me putting her back in her paddock and unhaltering her. Ive been working with her over the past week on her not fussing when I take off her halter. She will always fuss and throw her head up as its about to come off. But over the past week, I would undo her halter until the part where she will throw her head up, so then ive got her to woah, I freeze with the halter...and when she is more relaxed or lowers her head, I proceed taking the halter off. Sometimes it takes 10secs, sometimes 2mins. I just patiently wait.

If she fusses more, i say woah again and freeze. When the halter finally comes off fully without her fussing, I immeidately put the halter back on and do it all over again.

I did it 8 times on Sat, 5 times on Sun, Ive put it on and off until basically she is able to stand quietly to have the halter off. Then I will often do it one more time after just to be sure. I reward her. But this is something I feel I should really reward her with lots of praise and petting to make it really stand out that shes doing what I ask. I basically do this everyday. Its not that she doesnt know how to stand quietly when being unhaltered, its just that shes being a brat with me.

The last couple days shes been good, didnt have to repeat more than once or twice cause when the halter started to become undone, and reach that point where she would always fuss, she would relax a bit more and off the halter went.

Trainer said it wouldnt be a bad idea to use treats for the next while as well, to help praise her. Thoughts?

She said i could use it as a reward once the halter comes off or as a distraction tool for during the halter coming off.
Gah! Why keep taking the halter off and putting it back on after she got it right? Horses learn from the release of pressure. You keep putting the pressure back on after she gets it RIGHT. STOP.

take off the halter when she doesn't fuss, pet her, say, 'atta girl', and give a treat.

Five minutes of good handling and training is far better that 25 minutes of confusing crap. Because you WILL end up having to fix all the problems that the confusing crap caused.

BE that as it may, she is a nice little mare, and you really want to do right.
Because often she will be pretty good when i take the halter off but feel she could still do better. So i put it on one more time. Im not expecting perfection but there have been times in the past where i would take it off and say to myself that she was good enough when i knew there was room to be better. Well now im not leting anything slide. She must not fuss from when her halter starts being undone to when its off.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #186 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 06:14 PM
Started
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW PA
Posts: 2,285
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Because often she will be pretty good when i take the halter off but feel she could still do better. So i put it on one more time. Im not expecting perfection but there have been times in the past where i would take it off and say to myself that she was good enough when i knew there was room to be better. Well now im not leting anything slide. She must not fuss from when her halter starts being undone to when its off.
I can understand not fully removing it while she fusses, but how does she know she has done it right if you keep putting it on and off eight nine times? After she has been good you still keep at it. I would get rather fussy too if I did something right and was told I hadn't over, and over, and over.

Her reward should be you stop the session....you are releasing the pressure. Instead you keep at it. And keep at it. And keep at it.

Rome was not built in a day. Reward the try. Build on that. Then reach for more.
sarahfromsc is offline  
post #187 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 06:40 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario
Posts: 17,293
• Horses: 0
A little about clicker (clucker) training. Instead of using a gadget to make a click I opted to just make a cluck sound. This keeps both hands free. When you are removing the halter and she doesn't toss her head up, make the cluck sound as she's standing quietly then when the halter is off, give her a small treat. The cluck is a sound that tells the horse it's done right and that a treat is coming. When the horse grasps how it works, the method provides incentive for the horse to, in this case, hold it's head still while you remove it's halter. When you give the treat, extend your arm past her head so she has to turn her head away from you to get it. This teaches them that the treat is "over there" and not on your person. Mugging isn't allowed. BTW running a horse to exhaustion does not drive home a point as the horse's focus turns to trying to get enough air and not what you think you are punishing it for. When we say to let the horse think it's going to die, you move it sideways and or backward looking at it like you have murder on your mind. 50' is plenty then the horse is bro't back to what you were doing in a business like manner. The horse had a consequence for nipping or whatever. It often takes 3 times before the horse figures. Moving sideways is not a natural action and neither is backing more than a few steps. Horses are totally designed for forward movement so when you make it move sideways or back it tires it's muscles quickly.



anndankev and Whinnie like this.
Saddlebag is offline  
post #188 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 08:00 PM
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Neverland
Posts: 535
• Horses: 0
Just wanted to add, that the 'belly button stick' thing I described, is the sames as what skyseternalangel has been telling you about longeing. It's just another way to think about your body positioning and what really made things clear for me, when I was learning proper body language. Longeing on a line and free longeing should be executed the in the same way, the only difference is when free longeing you have to use your body language to control their head, since you don't have a line to them. But being in a roundpen helps that, as they are unable to 'leave' the circle.

I disagree about you not being ready to free longe. I would rather I (or someone else knowledgeable) could be right there to help walk you through it and help you with your timing, rather than you having a go at it by yourself the first few times. Simply because you have to be more clear and sure of your body language than you do with a line to their head. Which is why I think it would benefit you so much.


I'm worried that, while your trainer seems to have more knowledge than the past ones and may be a good instructor, she may not truly be as effective as a horse trainer as one would hope. I don't like to hear of people keeping a young horse only at a walk or trot. Horses need to be taught to move out forward freely at all gaits, loping needs to be part of the ride, from day 1. Does the trainer only do trot work?
If your horse were with me in training, I would have her covering ground and doing a job (learning to work a cow, work the flag, rope the sled, drag a tire, turn a barrel, trail obstacles, etc etc), getting her broke in the face, then the neck, then shoulder, ribs, then hind quarters, while performing those jobs. You would probably not even really be able to see me working on that stuff, without looking very closely. I do not like to drill young horse. I like to give them a job, that allows me to work on that stuff, almost without the horse realizing I'm working on it, because they are focused on the job at hand.

It concerns me, if she's only doing trot work. That's really not getting your horse worked like she needs to be. Horses can trot all day long... if you ever watch herds of wild horses covering country, they are always in a long trot. You will never see them loping, because that takes a lot more out of them. It really looks like your horse is feeling pretty fresh in the videos, like she really isn't getting worked as much as she needs.


The same thing I told you about overdoing something, applies to the halter situation. Your mind set needs to be in the moments. When you work with her on something, see where she is at THAT DAY and look for just 1% improvement from where she started that day. When you get that, quit. Don't keep pushing when she does something well, because you think she can do better. That mind set will lead you to pushing her to say no. Try to get in the habit of approaching each day fresh, gauging where she's at that day, and looking to just get a little bit of improvement on that. A slow, steady increase of improvement where you and your horse continue to grow more confident due to little successes, will pay off more in the long run, than two days of lots of improvement, followed by a day where you push her too far, she pushes back and you two get in a fight, pushing you back quite a ways in the improvement and the confidence departments. Try to set both of you up for success. It is feasible to expect to be able to improve 1% over 100 days, but it is not feasible to expect to improve 100% over a few days.
Your horse most definitely remembers the work you do with her, so it does you a lot more good if you get a little improvement each day, and can start each new day a little bit ahead of the day before, than it does if you push her to the point of a big battle, and you have to keep having days where you start way behind where you started the day before.

Remember the tortoise and the hare! Slow and steady wins the race ;)

For the biting thing, you're just going to have to be quicker. She obviously has to get her mouth close to you to nip or make the gesture, so that is the moment that you have to make contact with her. If she is pulling her head away, you were already too slow on the correction. You have to think ahead of her, so that when she reaches over to do it, you are ready to correct right then before she gets a chance to pull away.

I didn't really get a chance to watch the 2nd video very closely, but one thing I did notice, is that your horse gave lots of warning that things were escalating before she tried to run you over, and then rear. Every time you stopped her, coming toward the camera (toward her pen, I think you said), she didn't stop with you, she kept going. That was her pushing the boundaries and telling you she wasn't paying attention. If you stop and her feet even so much as go one inch past you, you need to immediately lay your lead rope or whip across the front of her legs and make her get back. I feel if you had corrected her the first time or two she did that, it would not have escalated to her thinking she could barge past you.
I agree with your assessment that she was kicking out at you, with bad intentions. That is where I would have very forcefully slapped her across that leg with the whip. And if I didn't have a whip, I would've immediately run up my lead rope, to where I was right next to her barrel, got short control of her head and gave her a good kick in the underside of her belly (all of that would've happened so fast, otherwise the timing would've been off and ineffective). I don't know that I would want you doing that, because it requires you to be incredibly quick and confident, and you have to have yourself in a safe spot, with control of her head, so that she can't kick you if she decides to put up a fight. I would rather recommend that you carry a whip with you at all times, until you have her where she will dependably comply with you, with no fight or lashing out.



I'm really glad you've made these videos. It takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there and subject yourself to critique, but it is what is necessary if a person want to really improve. Not only is it great for us to be able to actually see what's going on, it's really good for you to watch yourself as well. Never stop videoing yourself. I still video myself about once a week. If nothing else, on days when I'm feeling down about myself, I can look back at an older video and see how much I've improved.
Take some pride in knowing that every single one of us, feels your horse and you are doing MUCH better, than what we previously thought based on your posts. I think you have a pretty good, natural sense as to how to handle a lot of things. Have more confidence and trust in yourself. Try to stop overthinking things so much and go will your 'feel'. I think you (and your horse) are more capable than you give yourself credit for. Plus you have the most important quality, that many long time riders don't, the strong drive to improve and a willingness to try just about anything to get there. I really see a lot of potential in you and wish you were located somewhere near central California, so I could give you more hands on help with your timing and some of the things you are having some real trouble with.
enh817 is offline  
post #189 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Bad news. Feel i need to be careful with the BO.

I can tell the BO is a bit annoyed with me. He came to me tonight and said "you video taped yesterday?" obviously he wasnt too happy if he asked. I just said that i have a good friend who wanted to see me leading and he was like "oh ok" but i could tell he wasnt too impressed.

Initially i was really scared that he happened to browse this forum and saw this thread!!!!!!!!

He said if i dont want my mare getting ahead of me while leading, then dont let her then chuckled. Well i know but obviously im working on it.

Should i have perhaps asked him first if it was ok to video tape on his property? Perhaps and it did cross my mind but i didnt think it was a big deal. But i guess some people dont feel comfortable with having footage of their property. They dont know what youre recording and what for.

This sucks! I found recording myself and viewing later really helped see me from a 3rd person.

Then later he saw me refilling her water and he said not to. It was a bit low but im guessing either he wants to do it or him and the trainer are putting her out in the herd in the morning.

He knows i dont mind helping him filling the water considering i did this everyday at the old barn. After feeding my horse for 3 months at the old place, it still feels awkward not feeding her anymore.
anndankev likes this.
Hoofpic is offline  
post #190 of 1323 Old 10-16-2015, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,044
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I can understand not fully removing it while she fusses, but how does she know she has done it right if you keep putting it on and off eight nine times? After she has been good you still keep at it. I would get rather fussy too if I did something right and was told I hadn't over, and over, and over.

Her reward should be you stop the session....you are releasing the pressure. Instead you keep at it. And keep at it. And keep at it.

Rome was not built in a day. Reward the try. Build on that. Then reach for more.
But remember shes tossing her head because shes being bratty, not because she doesnt know what to do. With my trainer, she doesnt fuss, this proves she knows what is expected of when having her halter come off. She is just doing it with me because you can bet she is already planning on fussing well before even going back to her paddock and having her halter off.

Tonight she fussed a couple times, but I held the halter. I ended up putting it back on 3 extra times. The 2nd time, she was good, halter was coming off but just as it hit her nose she tossed her nose. So I put it back on, took it right off again and she didnt fuss at all. I immediately made a big deal out of it and praised here non stop with lots of rubs and scratches and even gave her a treat. She should NOW know what is expected and what I want. Big question is: Should I continue on with the treat for tomorrow? and next day? How long would you use the treats?

You kno what? Close isnt good enough because she knows what is expected. She is more than capable doing it, she just chooses not to everytime with me. Before I would take off her halter and at times she would be pretty good but not good enough. If I continued this, she would realize that hey, thats good enough for my owner, I dont need to stand completely still cause my halter will still come off, so why stand still?

If she fusses with my trainer then thats another story, but she doesnt.
anndankev likes this.
Hoofpic is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A couple questions. helterskelter Horse Nutrition 2 07-03-2013 04:38 PM
I have a couple questions..... WesternRider88 Draft Horses 10 06-11-2013 03:17 PM
Just a couple of questions TheMayoMat Horse Health 14 10-24-2012 10:44 PM
A couple of questions. Wes70 Horse Training 6 09-18-2012 07:45 PM
Couple of questions Solon Horse Forum Support Help Desk 1 02-08-2010 05:44 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome