A couple questions - Page 24 - The Horse Forum
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post #231 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Trainer recommended this book to me yesterday, ordered it today.

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post #232 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:31 PM
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I would also be worried about her kicking out at you.

All in all has your trainer seen this barging in behavior? What are her suggestions on correcting this mare when she does that?

Again, and I said it about the over haltering, I think she was leading nicely for a few minutes, but the lesson kept on and on with no sense of purpose.
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post #233 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
Hoofpic, where does she bite you?
She doent target anywhere, she just makes the gesture with her mouth. The other day she nip the back of my arm and today nowhere. She just makes the gesture in open air.
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post #234 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:35 PM
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In your second video, I thought I saw her yawning. Do you think she is trying to bite when she may be yawning?
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post #235 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I would also be worried about her kicking out at you.

All in all has your trainer seen this barging in behavior? What are her suggestions on correcting this mare when she does that?

Again, and I said it about the over haltering, I think she was leading nicely for a few minutes, but the lesson kept on and on with no sense of purpose.
She kicked out when i was lunging her the other night and IMO (and from what i was told) its most likely her response to saying "im doing what you ask, what more do you want".

Yes my trainer saw it yesterday. She got me to lead and turn her AWAY from me in the outside grass area where i always walk her to, and she said that

1) She was doing it cause she was uncomfortable about something going on in the bushes (there were bushes to my left after I turned her). Yes this is true about the bushes, she was uncomfortable cause she will keep looking over, but it doesnt explain why she will still barge when we are on the other side of this field nowhere near these bushes.

2) As I get near the bushes, I need to anticipate and pick up my pace, eat up all the slack on the lead so that as we get near the bushes I dont fall behind and I can steer and guide her through the turn without her getting ahead. Yes anticipating does help because if i found if i dont do this, i wont be able to react in time.

But am I suppose to be on alert every second when leading her? She does it randomly so i wont nessecarily know when she about to do it. It could be when there is something near by. It could be when there is nothing near by.

She said as long as im able to antipicate ahead of time and act even a second ahead of time, i should be able to prevent her from speeding up and barging. She said if she resists and still tries to get ahead, to walk faster, firmer, with more authority, put more pressure on her lead away from me (essentially pushing her head away from you), and steer her through body language.

---

One of my biggest adjustments I made right after that video is me no longer making her to do stuff more than needed. What ever i want her to do, once she does what I ask ONCE, I now reward her, quite and move on. But today i wasnt even working on leading with her, all i was doing was walking her out from the barn, for a brief walk through the field and back to the paddock. Unfortunately on the way to the field, through the field and back to her paddock I had to turn her a few times and she speed up and barged. I lead her away from me exactly like how the trainer was doing yesterday, with your body language, your walk and no pressure on the lead. I was very polite about it, not upset at all, absolutely zero pressure on her. Maybe she thought i was going to do another lesson with her, but i wasnt.

I think right now, my best suggestion for myself is to not walk her to this grassy field (where that video was taken) period. Take her to the barn, to her paddock, thats it. As much as it kills me seeing her only being fed twice a day and going long periods of time without food, no more grass for her. A big reason why ive been grazing her everyday is because so she doesnt go long periods of time without food and it at least helps spliten that time so she can at least have a snack in between meals.

My trainer says she never ever grazes her horses ever because she doesnt want them to get bad when leading. She said if she was in my shoes, she would not graze my mare for the time being until she smartens up.

But my questioon is,my mare knows im the one who takes her for grass every single time and we do it everyday (or just about). If I all of a sudden stop taking her for grass (lets say even for a week), do you think she will realize "hey, im no longer being grazed, i need to smarten up"...will she get that message?

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-18-2015 at 07:53 PM.
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post #236 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 07:50 PM
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What did your instructor say about the biting?

If I were there with you, I would probably put a stud chain on her, and really up the ante. (note - I am not recommending that you do this, because I'm almost positive she will not react well to it at first and will be quite offended by it. If the person handling her isn't ready for that, skilled with good timing and feel, and confident enough to not back down until she gives it up, it would only make matters worse) With a chain, you'd be able to give a correction, to her mouth/nose area no matter if she pulled her head away quickly or not.
I don't really know what to tell you, that I would feel comfortable having you do by yourself.

My recommendation to you, would be to talk to your instructor ASAP and tell her exactly what you have told us. Tell her about the biting and about the trouble you're having with her barging into you, even though you're trying to do as she instructed you. Tell her that you can feel things escalating, and you had a lot of trouble today, just leading her back to her pen. If you want to try to get through this, I think maybe you should try to have like 3 or 4 lessons this next week. That way you can put yourself in a position to handle her, only with the instructor there to supervise and help, and not mess with her any other time, until you have the confidence and ability to handle it on your own.

I don't doubt that the instructor has capabilities with horses, but I do wonder how much experience she has with young horses and if she's really able to help a novice, such as yourself, handle a horse like yours. It's very possible that the bulk of her experience has involved mostly teaching people with more broke horses. I obviously don't know anything about her background, but I do know that if someone came to me, in your situation, I would want to work with the horse for a while first, without you involved (i'd have you work with a more broke horse I have, to work on your own skills). That way I could get your horse safe enough for you to then be able to handle successfully. I would never allow a situation like you have now, where I only worked the horse a few days a week and left you to deal with it on your own, except for a lesson once a week. I'd want to get your horse right for you first, before you stepped in, to help you be as successful as possible.


I think it would be very wise to sell her and look for another, older, more broke horse for you to learn on (perhaps a lease this time? So you don't get stuck with another one that doesn't fit?)
I see a lot of potential in you and it would be a shame if this horse got you so frustrated that you didn't find it fun enough to stick with it. PLUS, the best part of having a horse is riding and being able to do fun things horseback. I don't know how long it would be before you are able to get to that point with the horse you have now.

No matter what you decide to do, please don't beat yourself up over it. Though you are struggling with some things, it's not for lack of try! And look at all the things you have been able to accomplish with her! If you do move onto another horse that is more broke, I think you'll find that your experiences with the young mare will help you a great deal, so don't think of it as a waste. You have learned a lot and you have earned the respect of everyone who has followed your threads, with your admirable drive to improve yourself.
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post #237 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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But if you ask me, personally I dont think by me purposely leading her less, walking her less is going to fix the problem, it will only minimize the chances of her lashing out because I minimize the amount of time that we are exposed to this situation.

If anything I should continue to walk her and lead her as usual. Dont make leading lessons out of it anymore, but if I want to take her for a walk, well guess what, that is leading for every second you are walking her. If I cant lead her without her lashing out, then what am I going to achieve from it? Leading is probably the most important thing in horse partnership.
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post #238 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whinnie View Post
In your second video, I thought I saw her yawning. Do you think she is trying to bite when she may be yawning?
Not at all, i can tell apart easily from yawning and biting.
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post #239 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:15 PM
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Most horses here don't get to graze ever and are perfectly healthy without it. They are usually fed twice or three times per day and that's it. We don't have pasture or really good grass. Your mare isn't going to starve or anything if she's not allowed to graze.

I agree with your trainer that hand-grazing can make a horse harder to lead. But, it depends on the horse and the handler. I can let my gelding hand-graze because I know that if I ask him to stop, he will. There are other horses I wouldn't try it with because they wouldn't listen as well.
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post #240 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by enh817 View Post
What did your instructor say about the biting?
She said I need to anticipate when shes about to bite and whack her on teh muzzle. Right now, my goal is to just accomplish wacking her on the muzzle period, within that 2 sec window (preferably right away).

Im still confident I can do this, just not with my hand but my whip. Accomplish it, one time, thats my goal right now, then work and build from there.

Seriously, Im not taking anymore BS from this mare. Now, Im not sure if im going to see her tomorow but the next time I do go see her, that whip will be in my hand every second I am at that barn.

This whole biting game is pretty much her turning her butt to me all over again. Thankfully i was able to get rid of that habit of her turning her butt to me months ago and it all started once I started carrying my lunge whip with me all the time. A few good solid whacks on her HQ with the whip really got her to wake up, then some round penning and the butt turning was gone.

One boarder said to me the other day to round pen her since ive had instant change and benefit from it in the past. I dont think roundpenning will achieve anything, what will, will be firm and consistent correction by either my hand or the whip.

What does worry me though is the fact yesterday I had her stand with me for 5 or 6 mins. She tried to circle around me at least 10 times in that 5-6 min window. I corrected her every single time. She licked and chewed after the 3rd or so time after we finished every correction. But yet she still tried it today. How many times do I need to do it to get her to realize to stop circling me?

I know its early (only 1 day) and i should give it more time but im wondering if this is a firm enough correction to send her the message.


Quote:
If I were there with you, I would probably put a stud chain on her, and really up the ante. (note - I am not recommending that you do this, because I'm almost positive she will not react well to it at first and will be quite offended by it. If the person handling her isn't ready for that, skilled with good timing and feel, and confident enough to not back down until she gives it up, it would only make matters worse) With a chain, you'd be able to give a correction, to her mouth/nose area no matter if she pulled her head away quickly or not.

I know forsure my trainer is most likely not a fan of stud chains.

Quote:
My recommendation to you, would be to talk to your instructor ASAP and tell her exactly what you have told us. Tell her about the biting and about the trouble you're having with her barging into you, even though you're trying to do as she instructed you.
I plan on doing this. Im hoping to get some advice from her.

Quote:
Tell her that you can feel things escalating, and you had a lot of trouble today, just leading her back to her pen.
Things didnt escalate today, they just remained the same from the past few days. As long as Im leading her in a straight (or near straight line) and not turning her way, she is fine.

Quote:
If you want to try to get through this, I think maybe you should try to have like 3 or 4 lessons this next week. That way you can put yourself in a position to handle her, only with the instructor there to supervise and help, and not mess with her any other time, until you have the confidence and ability to handle it on your own.
Im not sure if she has that availability to do that many lessons this week, plus she still has to ride her 3 times. I know exactly what my trainer wants me to do, but I wouldnt mind at least one more lesson working on this with her observing.

The only thing is, sure my mare behaves when the trainer is watching, but when shes not, then its almost like my mare knows it and lashes out more aggresively and doesnt respond as well.

Quote:
I don't doubt that the instructor has capabilities with horses, but I do wonder how much experience she has with young horses and if she's really able to help a novice, such as yourself, handle a horse like yours. It's very possible that the bulk of her experience has involved mostly teaching people with more broke horses.
Im not sure but I do know most of her experience is from teaching the younger crowd (older as well), and kids handling horses of all ages. Even though my mare is still young, my trainer still sees her as a well behaved horse.

Now I know and understand that she wants me to tone it done with my horse when correction because she is so sensitive, but I dont care how sensitive a horse is...if im not doing anything to upset them or make them irritated or relaliate and they lash out aggresively on their own will, times like that call for aggressive correction whether that be with the whip, etc.

Quote:
I obviously don't know anything about her background, but I do know that if someone came to me, in your situation, I would want to work with the horse for a while first, without you involved (i'd have you work with a more broke horse I have, to work on your own skills). That way I could get your horse safe enough for you to then be able to handle successfully. I would never allow a situation like you have now, where I only worked the horse a few days a week and left you to deal with it on your own, except for a lesson once a week. I'd want to get your horse right for you first, before you stepped in, to help you be as successful as possible.

Heres what I think, Im sure this has crossed her mind but heres the thing. My mare is not normally like this, when my trainer leads her AWAY from her (no matter what pace, what is around them), my mare doesnt lash out. I can bet you that i could have every single person at this barn lead her AWAY from them and my mare wouldnt lash out and woudl be good. So because of this (and from my trainer having gotten to know my mare from general handling of her, riding her etc), she doesnt see her as a disrespectful, aggresive, or bad behaved horse. She sees her as a young but good horse who is trying to please but is confused.

Now I think my mare has some personal vendetta/grudge against me. I mean why else would she lash out like that to me and only me?

Trainer says she does it because she is trying to tell me shes the leader because she has been lead into me so many times, so she is confused on who is leading who.

Quote:
I think it would be very wise to sell her and look for another, older, more broke horse for you to learn on
Im not a quitter adn not willing to give up just yet. I am keeping my head up.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-18-2015 at 08:34 PM.
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