A couple questions - Page 25 - The Horse Forum
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post #241 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Im not a quitter adn not willing to give up just yet. I am keeping my head up.
It's not about being a quitter or giving up. It's about knowing when you're in over your head and doing more harm than good.

I think you'd get a lot of insight by reading this thread: https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/playing-hero-when-stick-when-realize-50485/
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post #242 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
It's not about being a quitter or giving up. It's about knowing when you're in over your head and doing more harm than good.

I think you'd get a lot of insight by reading this thread: https://www.horseforum.com/horse-trai...realize-50485/
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I appreciate your feedback but I really dont want to be focused on this right now. Ive only had her for just over 4 months. We just started. Its too premature to give up so soon.

I just set a goal yesterday, my trainer says if im firm and consistent with her, doing the same corrections and handling every single time I handle her, I can earn her respect in 2 weeks. Forget by christmas, she says 2 weeks is possible considering how often I see her.

You all saw it in the videos, she is not a bad mare, she is well behaved, she just needs consistency and that will clear up her confusion from past training techniques. My trainer has no doubt that over time, I can achieve this. It all comes down to me and my consistency and my firm hand.
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post #243 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:45 PM
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I am not sure why I keep saying this, but the mare Knows who the leader is IMMEDIATELY, not in a time frame of weeks or months. Until YOU figure out what being a leader FEELS like, she will not know. That is why she does not TRY stuff with the trainer.

I do not think you need to quit on this mare.....but you NEED to figure out what a leader IS, and this only comes from feeling it.....you KNOW what I am going say....
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post #244 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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For anyone who would like to see it (feel free to add to it as you like). I have taken all the pointers from this thread and from my trainer yesterday on the adjustments I need to make.

I will be studying this throughout the week.

---

Friday October 16, 2015.

Short term on-going goals
Do the same actions every time I handle her.
Correct any bad behaviour within 2 secs max and apply the correction that is suitable for it.

Ultimate goal - by Oct 31, 2016.
Earn her respect and have her see me as a leader.



Adjustments needing to make

Leading:

Only turn AWAY from you. Switch sides leading on to compensate.
When leading away from me, drive with body language (big shoulders, head up, eyes forward, walk with meaning), as little to no pressure on the lead.
When turning into her direction, slow pace before going into the turn.
Say “and” before giving any que.
While keeping head up, monitor her pace. If she is behind, swing by outside arm behind me to get her going.
Walk with more energy, head up, shoulders big, chest big, look to where I am going. Dont look down.

Lunging:

Face her HQ, not her barrel.
Say “and” before giving any que.

Correcting:

When she tries to circle me, Tight Circle her in opposite direction by eating up slack in lead and putting lead pressure in that direction. Do two circles. If she fights and tries to block me keep going, pick up pace, put more pressure on lead. Keep head and shoulders up and lead with eyes.
Tone it down, be alot softer when correcting the first time.
No sniffing anything including me. Correct as needed.
No turning of the head, correct as needed.
No switching sides on me, correct as needed.


I "just" put this all together and just started making these adjustments as of a day or two ago. It would be stupid to just give up right now.
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post #245 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greentree View Post
I am not sure why I keep saying this, but the mare Knows who the leader is IMMEDIATELY, not in a time frame of weeks or months. Until YOU figure out what being a leader FEELS like, she will not know. That is why she does not TRY stuff with the trainer.

I do not think you need to quit on this mare.....but you NEED to figure out what a leader IS, and this only comes from feeling it.....you KNOW what I am going say....
What is it?

I know what a leader is and have a good visual image on how they go about being one. I just need to do it period.
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post #246 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:56 PM
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OK...get lessons on a schoolmaster....I really need to go back and count how many times I have said this...lol!

I would not keep saying it if I didn't like you , hoof pic, and think you are trying so hard.
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post #247 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:58 PM
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Leading away from you isn't such a hard concept to understand. Instead of you walking to your left to turn, you walk to your right, into where your horse would be standing, which causes them to yield to you.

"Strength is the ability to use a muscle without tension"
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post #248 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greentree View Post
OK...get lessons on a schoolmaster....I really need to go back and count how many times I have said this...lol!

I would not keep saying it if I didn't like you , hoof pic, and think you are trying so hard.
Riding lessons? I am. Or do you mean handling lessons?
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post #249 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by enh817 View Post
Something else I wanted to add -- just wanted to add that working with horses is an ebb and flow sort of deal. Things like 'respect' are not a once you have it, you never lose it sort of thing. We use the term 'respect' when talking about horses, but it's really not the same as how you or I might develop a respect for something. That requires more logic than a horse is capable of. When we use the term to describe horses, what it really means is the handler has properly taught the horse how they want them to behave, by being clear and consistent about where they will encounter pressure and where they will find release, and the horse fully understands, anticipates such, and stays within those parameters, so he doesn't encounter the pressure. Just because you have your horse's 'respect' one day, in one aspect, you may not have it in another way (on something you maybe haven't taught her yet), or on a different day (if you maybe dropped the ball on timing or consistency and she was able to get out of pressure in a way you didn't intend).
I really dislike the use of the term 'respect' for these reasons. I really wish people would just talk about horses in terms of pressure, release, and the anticipation of that pressure and release. Because whether we like it or not, that is truly the ONLY way a horse really thinks about things. That's all there is to training. It really is THAT simple. And I feel like it would make things a lot easier for people to understand, if we'd quit applying all the other human attributes and feelings that are not really there.


A good example is the horse I described in my previous post that has a lot of anxiety and nerves, from her past.
I can 'lead' her around without anything on her head. She will stay right with me. If I stop, she stops, if I hit a jog, she's right there with me. I can get her to move any body part, any way without making any contact with her. It's not a matter of respect, it's just that I taught her what I wanted by being clear and consistent, with good timing. The people who had her before, obviously hadn't tried to work with her on that kind of stuff, giving me a relatively clean slate to work with, so it didn't take long for me to teach her all that stuff.
But, when riding her, there have been quite a few times where she has gotten nervous or anxious and has gone to bucking hard, not because she doesn't respect me, but because she had learn in the past that it was a really effective way to get rid of the rider and the pressure. It's clear that she successfully bucked people off a number of times (myself included, once) because she definitely knows what she is doing when she does it and has no intentions of stopping until the rider is off her back. To get rid of that behavior, I have to do whatever I can to make sure the pressure doesn't go away until she stops bucking. I have to make sure bucking is not the way out of pressure for her, that in fact, it causes the pressure to increase. It takes time and repetition to erase the memories she has of bucking working for her and replace them with new memories of bucking not working and her finding release in other more suitable ways.

The sooner you can get rid of the notions of horses possessing human emotions and thought processes, the easier working with your horse will be.
You asked about horses holding a grudge... in a way, they can, but again, not in the same way humans do. Horses have a very good memory for what has gotten them release and what has brought on pressure in the past. So a horse can definitely remember a very pressure filled situation that happened. It's not that the horse is holding a grudge against you, it's just that they are remembering that a lot of pressure came from you in the past and are anticipating that it might happen again. Some horses are more sensitive to that than others. And the fairer you are about the application of pressure, the less likely they are to associate it with you, instead of the undesired behavior that brought it on. If you get in the habit of applying too much pressure as correction, dragging out the correction too long so the horse doesn't even know what action brought the pressure on, if you aren't consistent so the horse can anticipate what will incur pressure, if the timing of your corrections is off, basically anything that can lead to a lot of confusion as to what brings pressure and what brings release, then yes that can lead a horse to just associate you with pressure and cause them to resent you. If you are clear, fair, consistent and having good timing, you can get into a horse really hard for an undesired behavior as many times as needed, and the horse won't have any negative associations with you, only with the behavior they were being corrected for.
I know you mentioned I should read this, in which I did, in fact twice. Thank you for the information. This is one I will most likely read over and over time and time again.

I am getting used to horses not having human emotions and I know they are pressure and release thinkers, black and white, X and Os.
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post #250 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
Leading away from you isn't such a hard concept to understand. Instead of you walking to your left to turn, you walk to your right, into where your horse would be standing, which causes them to yield to you.
I know its not hard to do and Im doing it right, its just my mare has something to say about it.
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