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post #251 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:24 PM
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Your horse does not have a personal vendetta against you. I guarantee there is something that is different about how you conduct yourself and how you handle the horse, vs. how the trainer does it. Basically there is a different 'vibe' the horse gets off you than she does the trainer. The trainer has a record with the horse that doesn't include letting her get away with things, whereas the horse has successfully pushed you around a number of times before. Any time the horse hints that she's thinking about getting out of line, the trainer probably recognizes it and puts a stop to it before it escalates, whereas you are probably missing those subtle clues. I have taken a lot of time to type up posts for you, regarding how a horse thinks and how training a horse works (and how 'respect' isn't really a thing horses understand), please read those again, until you thoroughly understand. I promise you, I didn't make that stuff up, it's something that many, many people don't understand, but it's the difference between a person who is just going through the motions and someone who really knows how to 'speak' horse. At the moment I feel like a lot of those posts have gone unread and I spent all that time typing them for nothing.


Refraining from grazing the horse, is not about taking away a privilege, it's about trying to get her to stop anticipating that she gets to graze and screw around, by not doing it anymore. It's about making her realize that whenever she has a halter (or bridle/saddle) on, it's time for her to work and pay attention to you.
Every time she gets away with a bad behavior, it just further cements in her mind that this is the acceptable way to behave, that this is the way out of pressure. For every time she has gotten away with something, it will probably take like twice as many times where you successfully correct her, before that behavior disappears (this is not an exact figure, just my way of illustrating how their minds work). That is why I suggested not messing with her at all, unless you are under direct supervision of your instructor for a while. I feel you have a better chance at successfully handling her and dealing with the issues while the trainer is right there. Every time you are unable to properly correct the horse (or praise her for doing right), it makes your job of fixing the issues, that much tougher. If you can avoid getting into situations with her, where she wins, it will help you tremendously. Even if the horse is better behaved while the trainer is there. Repetition of days where she doesn't challenge you is MUCH better than having days where she challenges you and wins. Less interactions with her, that are all mostly positive and successful will do you a lot more good than more interactions, some of which are successful and some of which she wins. If you can't consistently win the confrontations without the trainer there, it's best to not get in them in the first place. Otherwise, you're just setting yourself back. Horses are creatures of habit. They remember what worked and what didn't work for them before, and expect/anticipate, that it will be the same the next time. If you can create more memories of the bad behaviors not working (or even not coming out in her), and avoid anymore memories of being made of bad behaviors working for her, you'll be a lot closer to getting rid of them.


I get that you don't want to give up, but really, none of what you're going through sounds like any fun to me. It's great that you have set a goal with her, but where do you see you being able to ride her around enjoyably, coming into the picture? You are going through an awful lot of stress, just over leading her around. I'm really concerned that you may put 4 more months into this horse, or more and still not be on her back.
The difference between your young horse and an older more broke horse, is that because your horse doesn't have years of solid training on her, she's not very forgiving. Every little mistake you make is going to be magnified because she isn't broke enough to not take advantage of you. If it is this much of a struggle for you, just to be able to lead her without her trying to bite or run you over, what kind of struggles are you going to have when you do finally move onto something more difficult? From the way you've described the riding your trainer is doing with her, I worry that she isn't doing enough to get this mare prepared for you to ride. It's my belief that the mare needs to be pushed hard, outside her comfort level regularly. That the trainer needs to be constantly seeking out weak spots in the mare and getting into those. If it were me, I'd be pushing to test her. Almost as if I was baiting her into trying to get into battles with me, so that I could have many opportunities to win those battles and let that mare know that she is not running the show. I'd push the mare harder than you ever would, so that when you rode her the type of things you'd be asking would be no problem compared to the stuff I made her do. I'd be trying to get any and all fight out of her, as soon as possible, so that she wouldn't even think of challenging you. I would be very adamant in getting the mare to where she was safe and enjoyable for you. And I would need more than 3 days a week, of just some trot work, to get that accomplished. It's not an ideal way of having to work with them, but I feel it is what would be necessary in order for you to be able to ride the young horse safely and with full enjoyment.
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post #252 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:25 PM
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"Heres what I think, Im sure this has crossed her mind but heres the thing. My mare is not normally like this, when my trainer leads her AWAY from her (no matter what pace, what is around them), my mare doesnt lash out. I can bet you that I could have every single person at this barn lead her AWAY from them and my mare wouldnt lash out and woudl be good. So because of this (and from my trainer having gotten to know my mare from general handling of her, riding her etc), she doesnt see her as a disrespectful, aggresive, or bad behaved horse. She sees her as a young but good horse who is trying to please but is confused.

Now I think my mare has some personal vendetta/grudge against me. I mean why else would she lash out like that to me and only me?

Trainer says she does it because she is trying to tell me she's the leader because she has been lead into me so many times, so she is confused on who is leading who."


I am concerned that your mare's behavior is taken personally. I hope you can learn to "talk" to her in a way she understands before you get hurt. Horses are usually subtle at first in their pushiness and as they succeed they become more overt. It may be that you are not recognizing the subtle behaviors and then they escalate. Just a thought.

I'm sorry you are having a tough time.
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post #253 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Riding lessons? I am. Or do you mean handling lessons?
c) all of the above
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post #254 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by enh817 View Post
Generally a correction should be the opposite of what the horse thinks they should be doing.
Yes and this is what my trainer said too.

Quote:
No correction is very effective if it continues after the behavior has stopped. You want the behavior to stop, so you need to release/reward when it does.
So lets take, doing 2 tight circles away from me is the correction. Stopping the circles is the release. Do you still need to reward after and if so when?

Quote:
Your trainer wants you only turn your horse away from you, because the horse is anticipating that she will find release by coming into you (which she does, because you move out of the way to avoid being run over). So what she is having you do, is reconditioning the horse to anticipate release being found by stepping away from you.
This is what i thought as well.

Quote:
I don't really tend agree with using tight circles as correction, as it just isn't quick or concise enough for me. That's not to say it can't work, but for me it is not the most effective way to correct. If I had a horse running their shoulder into me, or even just not stepping their shoulder away from me when I asked, I would take the end of my lead rope (or longe whip) and pop them in that shoulder to send it away from me. It would be quick and concise, my body positioning wouldn't change and I wouldn't be taking the horse off task. The very moment they moved their shoulder away, we'd go right back to what we were doing.
And that is why Im questioning whether 2 tight circles to correct is enough of a correction for my mare to get the message.

If it was me, I would use the whip on her shoulder the second she tries to barge into me. Do you know how tempted I am to switch to this method? I know I need to stick with one method for at least a bit and not switch until I know forsure it doesnt work. With that being said, because my trainer just taught me the 2 circle method yesterday, it would be a bit too soon and unfair to her to change it this soon. Remember consistency, I need to stick with one method and only change if its not working.

But for me the whip on the shoulder just makes so much more sense.

[/QUOTE]
There are tons of different ways to correct a horse. In all reality, it's not about the correction, but the release. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is what you release the horse to. [/QUOTE]

So doing 2 tight circles, what is the release? when you stop?


Quote:
Sometimes making a horse 'scared' is necessary to send a message. The reason being, is they will remember those moments better than they will little corrections that were more just minor annoyances. There are times when the horse acts in a very dangerous manner (rearing, bucking, biting, kicking, striking, etc) and you need to make sure they don't forget the consequences of acting in such a way. But even still, all the same rules for other corrections still apply -- timing, quick and concise - get in and get out then go back to business, consistency, etc. The only difference is the behavior was a big deal, so the correction needed to be a big deal. Remember the correction needs to fit the offense.
Ok good to hear.


Quote:
If I was leading a horse and they reared, I would send them forward with as much energy as I could. Rearing, is usually a result of a horse's feet getting stuck and them either thinking they can't go forward or refusing to go forward, so they go up. A horse really can't rear if they are moving forward So, the correction that makes the most sense for me, is to send them forward very quickly.
I would push them fwd as well. Making them do 2 tight circles if they rear makes no sense to me. Huh?

Quote:
It takes time to learn how to think like a horse and be able to make split-second decisions about how to correct behaviors in the moment. As a novice, it is probably best for you to stick with what your instructor is telling you, so that you can condition yourself to be able to respond with good timing and not have to think about what correction is best. Once you get more comfortable with applying corrections and thinking like a horse becomes more natural, you'll be able to put more analysis behind how you correct in the moment. For now, just keep things simple so that you can get your timing and release right, as that will benefit you and your horse more, in the long run.
Yes you are right. Though i may question her 2 circle correction, i must stick with it for now and work on my timing.

Im going to finish up reading "how to think like a horse" tonight.
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post #255 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel View Post
Leading away from you isn't such a hard concept to understand. Instead of you walking to your left to turn, you walk to your right, into where your horse would be standing, which causes them to yield to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
I know its not hard to do and Im doing it right, its just my mare has something to say about it.
That wasn't for you as you are being shown how to do it by your trainer. It's for the others on this thread that had a hard time conceptualizing what you actually meant by leading away.
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post #256 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:53 PM
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I watched the circling/lunging video again, and again, and again.

She did kick out at you. Like she looked back and aimed for you. Scary.

The other thing is when she is going nicely at a trot around on the circle, you keep twirling your lead rope (pressure), and never gave her release by stopping the twirling rope. And a frantic twirling at that.

Why did you keep twirling the rope?

I think one of your biggest errors is not knowing when to release pressure. Maybe you don't realize what pressure is and what release is. That is the feel you will need to develop.
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post #257 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enh817 View Post
I have taken a lot of time to type up posts for you, regarding how a horse thinks and how training a horse works (and how 'respect' isn't really a thing horses understand), please read those again, until you thoroughly understand. I promise you, I didn't make that stuff up, it's something that many, many people don't understand, but it's the difference between a person who is just going through the motions and someone who really knows how to 'speak' horse. At the moment I feel like a lot of those posts have gone unread and I spent all that time typing them for nothing.
PLEASE dont think im ignoring that piece of advice, Im not. That was a very valuable piece of advice, thank you. I take every single bit of advice here seriously. I replied to it on the page before this one (that is the correct piece of advice from you that you are referring to right?) Just want to make sure.

Quote:
Refraining from grazing the horse, is not about taking away a privilege, it's about trying to get her to stop anticipating that she gets to graze and screw around, by not doing it anymore. It's about making her realize that whenever she has a halter (or bridle/saddle) on, it's time for her to work and pay attention to you.
Oh ok! With that being said, no more grazing her! You think she will get the message and fairly quickly?

If she can smarten up and work her way up then I will graze her again but for now, no more grazing. And this will be tough for me because I love giving her grass, its one of my fav things to do for her.

Quote:
Every time she gets away with a bad behavior, it just further cements in her mind that this is the acceptable way to behave, that this is the way out of pressure. For every time she has gotten away with something, it will probably take like twice as many times where you successfully correct her, before that behavior disappears (this is not an exact figure, just my way of illustrating how their minds work).
Yes, Im aware of that and this is why me punishing her on time and correctly each time is just eating my mind right now. I know I can do this.


Quote:
That is why I suggested not messing with her at all, unless you are under direct supervision of your instructor for a while. I feel you have a better chance at successfully handling her and dealing with the issues while the trainer is right there. Every time you are unable to properly correct the horse (or praise her for doing right), it makes your job of fixing the issues, that much tougher. If you can avoid getting into situations with her, where she wins, it will help you tremendously. Even if the horse is better behaved while the trainer is there.

Repetition of days where she doesn't challenge you is MUCH better than having days where she challenges you and wins. Less interactions with her, that are all mostly positive and successful will do you a lot more good than more interactions, some of which are successful and some of which she wins. If you can't consistently win the confrontations without the trainer there, it's best to not get in them in the first place. Otherwise, you're just setting yourself back. Horses are creatures of habit. They remember what worked and what didn't work for them before, and expect/anticipate, that it will be the same the next time. If you can create more memories of the bad behaviors not working (or even not coming out in her), and avoid anymore memories of being made of bad behaviors working for her, you'll be a lot closer to getting rid of them.
I will mention this with my trainer when she gets back to me, you make very good points.

Quote:
I get that you don't want to give up, but really, none of what you're going through sounds like any fun to me. It's great that you have set a goal with her, but where do you see you being able to ride her around enjoyably, coming into the picture? You are going through an awful lot of stress, just over leading her around. I'm really concerned that you may put 4 more months into this horse, or more and still not be on her back.
Right now I dont even expect to ride her til next summer at the earliest.
Im not stressed out, just fed up, frustrated, but like I said its going to change this week. Im not taking anymore BS from this mare.


Quote:
The difference between your young horse and an older more broke horse, is that because your horse doesn't have years of solid training on her, she's not very forgiving. Every little mistake you make is going to be magnified because she isn't broke enough to not take advantage of you. If it is this much of a struggle for you, just to be able to lead her without her trying to bite or run you over, what kind of struggles are you going to have when you do finally move onto something more difficult? From the way you've described the riding your trainer is doing with her, I worry that she isn't doing enough to get this mare prepared for you to ride. It's my belief that the mare needs to be pushed hard, outside her comfort level regularly. That the trainer needs to be constantly seeking out weak spots in the mare and getting into those. If it were me, I'd be pushing to test her. Almost as if I was baiting her into trying to get into battles with me, so that I could have many opportunities to win those battles and let that mare know that she is not running the show. I'd push the mare harder than you ever would, so that when you rode her the type of things you'd be asking would be no problem compared to the stuff I made her do. I'd be trying to get any and all fight out of her, as soon as possible, so that she wouldn't even think of challenging you. I would be very adamant in getting the mare to where she was safe and enjoyable for you. And I would need more than 3 days a week, of just some trot work, to get that accomplished. It's not an ideal way of having to work with them, but I feel it is what would be necessary in order for you to be able to ride the young horse safely and with full enjoyment.
She pushes her but remember, she just started riding her on a consistent basis and just got past the feeling out stage. She will increase workload as time goes on but when I watched her a couple weeks ago she was pushing her pretty good. Remember she went 3 months without being ridden as well so she used the first lesson to feel her out and get to know her.
In the spring I would like to get her on 5 days a week. Like I said, as long as shes making progress thats the most important thing. But yes you are right, I need to be sure that over time my trainer will get her ready enough for me to ride.

My trainer said that she will be pushing her more and more as time goes on so that she can focus and work on her weaknesses. She already has focused and worked on her weaknesses and keyed in on them, believe she started this in the 2nd lesson.

My only concern is that she knows how sensitive my mare is and I hope because of this, it doesnt hinder her desire in how aggressive she is.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-18-2015 at 10:07 PM.
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post #258 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sarahfromsc View Post
I watched the circling/lunging video again, and again, and again.

She did kick out at you. Like she looked back and aimed for you. Scary.

The other thing is when she is going nicely at a trot around on the circle, you keep twirling your lead rope (pressure), and never gave her release by stopping the twirling rope. And a frantic twirling at that.

Why did you keep twirling the rope?

I think one of your biggest errors is not knowing when to release pressure. Maybe you don't realize what pressure is and what release is. That is the feel you will need to develop.
Like I said earlier, I know when to release pressure (Ive actually gotten quite good at this) but I PURPOSELY did not release pressure when i lunged her because i was correcting her and if I dont keep the pressure up she will try to stop on the line on her own. You can see that she even did a couple times and even tried more but i anticipated it and swing the rope some more as she was about to slow down.

I know one things forsure is that my trainer now is much MUCH different than my past ones. The past ones were much more aggressive when it came to correcting, whereas she is much gentlier. Mind you, my past trainers both saw and said how sensitive my horse is, but they didnt ease off when it came to how much pressure they applied when giving ques.

The first trainer I had at the old barn, I had (and still do) full confidence in her ability and training method (though she was a Parelli trainer), its just she wasnt able to ride my mare anyways because shes too heavy.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-18-2015 at 10:12 PM.
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post #259 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
Like I said earlier, I know when to release pressure (Ive actually gotten quite good at this) but I PURPOSELY did not release pressure when i lunged her because i was correcting her and if I dont keep the pressure up she will try to stop on the line on her own. You can see that she even did a couple times and even tried more but i anticipated it and swing the rope some more as she was about to slow down.
I saw her trying to stop; that is when you apply as little pressure as you can or up the ante as necessary. What I saw was constant pressure. So she acts out.

Pressure doesn't always have to be so hard or extreme. A couple of twirls of the lead might have worked instead of the frantic/aggressive twirling.

That is the feel horse people talk about.
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post #260 of 1323 Old 10-18-2015, 10:19 PM Thread Starter
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"Heres what I think, Im sure this has crossed her mind but heres the thing. My mare is not normally like this, when my trainer leads her AWAY from her (no matter what pace, what is around them), my mare doesnt lash out. I can bet you that I could have every single person at this barn lead her AWAY from them and my mare wouldnt lash out and woudl be good. So because of this (and from my trainer having gotten to know my mare from general handling of her, riding her etc), she doesnt see her as a disrespectful, aggresive, or bad behaved horse. She sees her as a young but good horse who is trying to please but is confused.

Now I think my mare has some personal vendetta/grudge against me. I mean why else would she lash out like that to me and only me?

Trainer says she does it because she is trying to tell me she's the leader because she has been lead into me so many times, so she is confused on who is leading who."


I am concerned that your mare's behavior is taken personally. I hope you can learn to "talk" to her in a way she understands before you get hurt. Horses are usually subtle at first in their pushiness and as they succeed they become more overt. It may be that you are not recognizing the subtle behaviors and then they escalate. Just a thought.

I'm sorry you are having a tough time.
But something as simple and black and white as leading away from you should never be an issue to any horse.

Trainer watched me yesterday and said i am fine when leading her. My body language is fine and i am driving her with my shoulders and walk. Im not doing anything to cause her to set off.

I think shes just being a brat (or like my trainer described it one day, "she can be a B at times). And that is why I really would love to whip her on the shoulder when she tries to barge into me. This is no different than her being a brat when I try to bridle her. She is purposely doing this, well because like my trainer said, she can be a B.

The whip most definitely worked on her butt turning when I would whip her hard on her HQ (2 or 3 days in a row), so I have no doubt it wouldnt work on this. Same with biting, she will get a hard whack on her muzzle with the whip. I dont want to hurt her, but when I use the whip I mean business. If I have to hit her hard enough so that i leave a welt (obviously i dont want this but just saying) for her to get the message, then I will have to do it.

I know how hard I hit her, and then Ive seen how hard my past trainers have whacked her and it makes me look like a peasant. So the though of me potentially hitting her too hard is not even in the equation, if anything i need to hit even harder.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-18-2015 at 10:24 PM.
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