A couple questions - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 12:21 AM
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I think you're overthinking it again. Speak just like you're speaking to another person. Plain and SIMPLE.
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post #62 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 12:28 AM
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Hoofpic,

I would really like to see a video of you and your mare. Doing a bit of handling, leading, and maybe a simple pattern.

Such as setting up a couple of cones about 20 feet apart.
Start by standing at one cone then walk to the other and halt.
Turn around and trot in hand back to the first cone and stop.

Next, walk to the center between the cones, then walk a figure eight pattern around the two cones.

Then another exercise without the cones, close in hand work on giving to pressure. On a loose lead line using your hand apply pressure to her hip/flank area to get her to move her HQ away from you. From each side. Then move her shoulder/front end away from you on each side.

Do these exercises with your normal manner of cues, talking to her or not as usual, with any corrections needed in your usual progression

I've seen several posters asking for a video with no response from you.
I've seen you post that you have worked for 7 years in video production.
I've seen you post about corrections that sound harsh, yet say that people tell you you need to get 'firmer'.
I see a few posters tell you over and over to get harsh, hit, have CTJ meetings, and worry that you do not have the experience to apply these things in a beneficial way.
I'm concerned that you take things too literally, with no concept of doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, with any feel for the horse that is in front of you.

Can you, will you, please set up a camera or have someone video some simple movements (maybe your BO or trainer) and show us, whom you are asking for advice, what is really going on?

Otherwise, since she is now in 30 days of training, just take a 30 day break from trying to train her yourself and do not 'work' with her unless your trainer (or BO) is present.

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post #63 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
In other words I still need to take my assertiveness to another level.
Yes, take what you think would be extreme and multiply by three and see how that works. You need to understand that your horse is not a computer that you can break by pushing the wrong button.

I'm not a big fan of whacking a horse, but there is a time for it. And if you need to do it, you need to make it count. If you whack her with a stick and she jerks the lead rope out of your hands and runs to the far end of the pasture and stares at you with big eyes and flared nostrils, you might have hit her a little harder than necessary. But it won't ruin her. She will be giving you way more focus next time.

I've had my big guy for 17 of his 18 years. I've done about everything wrong that I could possibly do wrong. But he still loves me, still comes when I call, still does what I want, still makes the vets wish all their horses were like him. We didn't get there by dilly dallying or shilly shallying. Go big or go home. It's good you want to do it right, and I hope you will keep learning every day for decades, but you'll never find out what enough is until you try too much. It's like focusing a pair of binoculars. You twist the dial until it gets clear and keep twisting until it starts to blur again, then dial it back. Otherwise you'll always be seeing in a blur.

But Anndankev is right, we could be a lot more help if you show us the video.
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Last edited by Joel Reiter; 10-14-2015 at 12:36 AM.
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post #64 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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I will reply to your responses in the morning (off to bed now) but yes i will do that! I will borrow my high end vid cam and tripod from work to shoot tomorrow, (taking it that the arena will be free when i get there tomorrow after work). The arena is pretty dark and doesnt have a lot of light so i hope it will be clear enough.

I hope no one will reconize me in my video.
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post #65 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
I'm by no means saying don't talk to your horse ever. I'm just saying that it isn't necessary and is more for you than her. Like I said, I carry on full-blown conversations with my gelding.

The key is to remember that your tone dictates your body language...and your body language is what your horse actually gets.
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Drafty, I almost never disagree with you but I have to on this. They do understand tone of voice not just body language and I even believe they understand more words than we give them credit for. Just for an example on farrier day we work in the first stall of an L shaped lean-to. I'm holding the horse getting worked on and the loose ones in the back sometimes get to fussing with each other. I say, "knock it off" in my, you best mind right now, voice and they stop. They can't see me to read body language or see facial expressions or anything else so they are either hearing tone of voice or they understand the words one.

I have also experimented with going to the barn at feeding time and not saying a word. On a normal day I tell Gamble to get in his stall while holding the gate partially closed and he comes and walks around it and I finish closing the gate. While doing this I tell TJ to close his gate and sometimes have to tell him to wait for his brother (sometimes he's a snot and tries his best to get that gate closed before Flash gets around it) because him and Flash share a very large stall at feeding time. Next I tell Cloud to step up to her feeder to get her neck rope fastened (she shares the stall opened to the outside with Cutter and she's a foodie so has to get tied). Anyway that's the everyday routine but the few times I've experimented with trying to go through this routine without talking to them they all stand in a group and stare at me. LOL Then I get to the three along the back of the barn and I don't have to separate them because they're all good about not trying to run each other off but Thunder will stand and try to eat out of Freckles' feeder if I don't tell him to go get in his own spot. So on the days I'm not talking he don't go to his own feeder even after I dump the feed in it. They'll both eat Freckles' food and then they'll both move down to Thunder's feeder and clean that up (sometimes you'd think them 2 are joined at the hip).

So there is something to be said for talking but I agree about the baby voice, I don't talk to babies or animals in a baby voice (well sometimes the dog if I'm teasing him about acting like a baby).

To the OP, everybody keeps telling you this but you're not listening...you are way overthinking everything. So much of horse management is nothing more than common sense. Behave in a calm and confident manner around your horse and they will learn to be calm and confident. If your horse gets ahead of you while leading use a method that works best for you (what feels the most comfortable, I'm not one to carry a whip so if I try I do more fumbling around with it than using it for anything constructive so I use other methods). Tap on the chest, backing up, making them circle are all methods that work but you have to be consistent ALWAYS. It's not ok to let them get ahead of you one day because you're just letting them walk along and graze during free time and the next day expect them to stay in perfect position (you can eventually but you are not there yet so for now, for you, it's never). Use the same correction every time so that your horse has the opportunity to learn what that correction means. You can't use a different one everyday in hopes that one of them will magically click with your horse and then she'll never do it again. Same goes for rearing, I'd smack the crap out of those legs while they were in the air with the lead rope but you have to do it during the crime in order for your horse to learn that is what it's being punished for. You cannot wait until they're back on all fours and then punish.

Good luck and keep up with your lessons. I know you're frustrated, sometimes we all get frustrated when we run up against something we can't seem to figure out, but the problems don't get solved until we get over that frustration and calmly work to figure them out.
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post #66 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
Hoofpic,

I would really like to see a video of you and your mare. Doing a bit of handling, leading, and maybe a simple pattern.

Such as setting up a couple of cones about 20 feet apart.
Start by standing at one cone then walk to the other and halt.
Turn around and trot in hand back to the first cone and stop.

Next, walk to the center between the cones, then walk a figure eight pattern around the two cones.

Then another exercise without the cones, close in hand work on giving to pressure. On a loose lead line using your hand apply pressure to her hip/flank area to get her to move her HQ away from you. From each side. Then move her shoulder/front end away from you on each side.

Do these exercises with your normal manner of cues, talking to her or not as usual, with any corrections needed in your usual progression

I've seen several posters asking for a video with no response from you.
I've seen you post that you have worked for 7 years in video production.
I've seen you post about corrections that sound harsh, yet say that people tell you you need to get 'firmer'.
I see a few posters tell you over and over to get harsh, hit, have CTJ meetings, and worry that you do not have the experience to apply these things in a beneficial way.
I'm concerned that you take things too literally, with no concept of doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, with any feel for the horse that is in front of you.

Can you, will you, please set up a camera or have someone video some simple movements (maybe your BO or trainer) and show us, whom you are asking for advice, what is really going on?

Otherwise, since she is now in 30 days of training, just take a 30 day break from trying to train her yourself and do not 'work' with her unless your trainer (or BO) is present.
Can't agree with this enough. If you're going to keep coming here with these questions requiring such individualized advice, people need a lens into what's going on, otherwise everyone is just spinning plates.
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post #67 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 09:03 AM
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SHOULD we recognize you?? Are you famous?
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post #68 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum View Post
I think you're overthinking it again. Speak just like you're speaking to another person. Plain and SIMPLE.
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I know, like I said I just need to adjust, im confident it wont take long as I was much different last night.
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post #69 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
Hoofpic,

I would really like to see a video of you and your mare. Doing a bit of handling, leading, and maybe a simple pattern.

Such as setting up a couple of cones about 20 feet apart.
Start by standing at one cone then walk to the other and halt.
Turn around and trot in hand back to the first cone and stop.

Next, walk to the center between the cones, then walk a figure eight pattern around the two cones.

Then another exercise without the cones, close in hand work on giving to pressure. On a loose lead line using your hand apply pressure to her hip/flank area to get her to move her HQ away from you. From each side. Then move her shoulder/front end away from you on each side.

Do these exercises with your normal manner of cues, talking to her or not as usual, with any corrections needed in your usual progression

I've seen several posters asking for a video with no response from you.
I've seen you post that you have worked for 7 years in video production.
I've seen you post about corrections that sound harsh, yet say that people tell you you need to get 'firmer'.
I see a few posters tell you over and over to get harsh, hit, have CTJ meetings, and worry that you do not have the experience to apply these things in a beneficial way.
I'm concerned that you take things too literally, with no concept of doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, with any feel for the horse that is in front of you.

Can you, will you, please set up a camera or have someone video some simple movements (maybe your BO or trainer) and show us, whom you are asking for advice, what is really going on?

Otherwise, since she is now in 30 days of training, just take a 30 day break from trying to train her yourself and do not 'work' with her unless your trainer (or BO) is present.
I will do those excersizes tonight and record it. When you say to move her hind from both directions, did you want hands only or with a stick? Or I can move it just by moving her in a tight circle. Thankfully moving her hind is one of the easiest things to do with her, she almost never resists. However, moving her forequarters is another story, as she JUST learned how to do this when I got her and she hates it. She tried to bite me last time I did it, but I still made her do it.
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post #70 of 1323 Old 10-14-2015, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCnGrace View Post
It's not ok to let them get ahead of you one day because you're just letting them walk along and graze during free time and the next day expect them to stay in perfect position (you can eventually but you are not there yet so for now, for you, it's never).
This is one bad habit I had of mine. I would lead her one day expecting her in perfect position keeping up with my pace, then when I hand graze her, I give her tons of slack in the lead and when she roams for grass to new areas, I let her lead and get ahead of me.

NOW, I still give her lots of slack in the lead (cause from what a past trainer told me, when grazing your horse, you dont need to be standing right next to them as they need space too). Is this true? Can anyone confirm?

So I would give her lots of slack in her lead (Id say shes about 8-10ft from me) and when she wants to roam around, I quickly eat up the slack, tell her whoa, so I can get back to her side, have little slack in the lead, then lead her to where she wants to go.

Im not sure if this is the best way in going about it? Can you give me pointers? I have my doubts this is correct.

I have a hunch that I should not be giving her so much slack in the lead when shes grazing and that I should infact be standing right next close to her, so that when she wants to roam, I dont have to take a second or two to eat up the excess slack.

Quote:
Use the same correction every time so that your horse has the opportunity to learn what that correction mes ans. You can't use a different one everyday in hopes that one of them will magically click with your horse and then she'll never do it again. Same goes for rearing, I'd smack the crap out of those legs while they were in the air with the lead rope but you have to do it during the crime in order for your horse to learn that is what it's being punished for. You cannot wait until they're back on all fours and then punish.
.
The good news is that I think (am confident anyhow) that I found a correction that works for her trying to get ahead of me while leading. I started it last night and will continue with it tonight and so on. One of the problems I have is that I give up on ques too fast. Just because I get a reaction from her that I dont want or im finding it doesnt work as well as I hope, i soon stop it and move onto the next method of correcting. Well Im confident this will work, I just need to be conistant with it every single time, every single day I see her.

I did gain some confidence lately because Ive been working with her on the past week on another habit of hers that I want to get rid of and ive been seeing results the past couple days. The correction method was one suggsted by a friend of mine. Because of this, I make sure i stay consistent each time so that she learns.

Last edited by Hoofpic; 10-14-2015 at 10:39 AM.
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