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post #791 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post
No not at all. My expectation is just her having trust in me and respecting me. I know she doesnt have human emotions and never will. I could sell her tomorrow and she wouldnt give a **** about me. Im a resource of food and treats for her and I brush and groom her and take care of her. Thats why she gives me any attention.
I ask because numerous times you have worried that she doesn't nicker at you when with the herd and have worried she will detach from you. I think you understand intellectually about horses not having human emotion, but I am not so sure you accept it emotionally.

Horses do like the companionship of another being, it helps them feel secure. Many racehorses have goat "friends" or even chicken "friends". Horses will enjoy being groomed, etc and if you provide that, they will look forward to seeing you, but they will not give back affection to you as another human would. When you come to that conclusion emotionally, (i.e. stop worrying that she will detach, etc.) you will be able to advance In your training of her.

As for the moving and not letting you pick up her hoof. That is one of her tests. She is seeing if you are going to make her stand. A test of leadership. If she moves, back her up a few steps, then stop. Then bring her forward to where you began, say "whoa" and try again. Each time she moves, back her up and do it over, until she stands.

You will get other ideas here, if one doesn't work for you after giving it a fair try, find another that will. It is always good to have several solutions to a problem.

Also. she needs to NOT be tied so you can respond and correct quickly.
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Last edited by Whinnie; 11-14-2015 at 12:34 PM.
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post #792 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
I think going to the various clinics is fun and can be educational, as long as you keep your critical thinking faculties in order. Don't just swallow everything the clinician says, but analyze what he's saying as he's doing and applying his principles.

I spent a weekend at a Chris Cox Clinic auditing and enjoyed myself immensely. Of all the clinicians I've seen, I would have him start a horse for me.

I went to see Monty Roberts several years ago and thought it was interesting, though I don't really use much of his techniques.

I've also seen Gawani Pony Boy and learned the value of silence, patience and directed thought from him.

I saw John & Josh Lyons, they kind of fell into the Monte Roberts school of thought.

I went to see Buck Brannaman not too long ago and liked his way of doing things.

I've seen Pat Parelli and, as you know, I like working my babies with his 7 Games training. That's about all I use from him though.

Oh, and I went to see Dennis Reis, basically a Pat Parrelli clone.

I like going to these clinics and seminars because I can learn something from everyone. I don't drink anybody's "Koolaid" but I have incorporated things from just about everyone, including Eitan Beth Hallachmy, in the way I do things. Sometimes the best thing I take away from a clinic is what I DON'T want to do. You can apply a little bit of something from everyone, once you have distilled your beliefs and approaches to things down.
Thanks. You're right, I think they are beneficial to attend to observe as long as you dont take everything as if its always correct.

I do like the Parelli 7 games and have done 4 of the 7 with my mare but Im not sure if i believe in the Parelli method beyond the 7 games.

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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
Don't worry about it. Since I can't see what you're doing, I'm going to guess at how you're doing things.

When I go to reach for my mare's hoof"

Sounds like you're not close enough to keep her from stepping away. Set yourself up for success by placing her next to a wall, side you don't want to handle right next to the wall. I stand at my horse's shoulder and face backwards, towards their hip. I get right up against the shoulder and I put my hand on my horse right at the shoulder and run it down the back of the leg and when I get just above the fetlock joint, I stop and very gently squeeze on the cannon bone and I lift, lightly. If they don't give me their foot right away, I lean my hip against their shoulder and give a little push to get the weight off the foot and simultaneously lift the foot. The goal is to be able to lightly touch the horse on the cannon bone and have her pick up her foot.

If your mare has not been trained that way, start with a rope. I like to take the rope and pass it around the horse's leg, up by the shoulder and slowly work it down to the pastern area and then I tug the foot up until it's just off the ground and I give it back, right away. This is to teach the horse that I won't keep the foot but will always give it back. Until the horse starts to give the foot when it feels the rope, I just keep doing it for 3 or 4 times per session and I try to do 1 or 2 sessions per day. Once the horse is ok for that, then I go up to the hand and start doing that until I can walk up, face the hip and run my hand down and just touch the cannon bone and the horse lifts his foot. It takes time and patience. Here's a video of pretty much how I do things. I, personally, don't wrap the rope around the horses leg like he does, if the horse gets scared and runs away I want to KNOW that they're going to step out of that rope right away.

https://youtu.be/6MgQYrgMeMM
Thanks, I never considered putting her up against the wall (with the side im not focusing on against the wall), but that would make sense cause she has nowhere to go.

She is normally very good in picking her feet, she just wants to be a brat sometimes my trainer says. Like my trainer called it, sometimes she wants to be a "B"....

When I pick her feet, i do exactly as you described except as Im going for the leg, i run my hand down her leg before hand so she knows. I usually dont have to pinch down there but i will lean a bit into her shoulder if she doesnt respond.
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post #793 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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I ask because numerous times you have worried that she doesn't nicker at you when with the herd and have worried she will detach from you. I think you understand intellectually about horses not having human emotion, but I am not so sure you accept it emotionally.
Im getting there, just hoping it wasnt taking me so long to adjust. I will dont worry, i am confident i will.

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When you come to that conclusion emotionally, (i.e. stop worrying that she will detach, etc.) you will be able to advance In your training of her.
I just have to keep telling myself this and reminding myself.

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As for the moving and not letting you pick up her hoof. That is one of her tests. She is seeing if you are going to make her stand. A test of leadership. If she moves, back her up a few steps, then stop. Then bring her forward to where you began, say "whoa" and try again. Each time she moves, back her up and do it over, until she stands.

You will get other ideas here, if one doesn't work for you after giving it a fair try, find another that will. It is always good to have several solutions to a problem.

Also. she needs to NOT be tied so you can respond and correct quickly.
Thats what ive been doing is, when she moves away from me...I get onto the other side of her and move her back however many steps she just took. If she took 1 step, then I move her back 1 step. If its two steps, then I move her back two steps. Then when i get back to her other side, I will say "Stand".
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post #794 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoofpic View Post

When I pick her feet, i do exactly as you described except as Im going for the leg, i run my hand down her leg before hand so she knows. I usually dont have to pinch down there but i will lean a bit into her shoulder if she doesnt respond.
If she's trained enough to pick up her feet when you just touch her leg, then your trainer is correct, she's being a brat . I wouldn't run my hand down to let her know what's coming, that's setting yourself up for failure if it's a day she wants to test your authority. Just walk up, face her hind end and reach down and touch her on the leg. If she doesn't pick up, lean into her shoulder to slightly unbalance her and grab around her pastern and pick that hoof up and hold it. Let her know that the touch on the back of the leg is the polite way of asking but that you will "take" if she doesn't "give". Again, it's a boss thing. See what I mean about being more subtle in the testing?
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post #795 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
If she's trained enough to pick up her feet when you just touch her leg, then your trainer is correct, she's being a brat . I wouldn't run my hand down to let her know what's coming, that's setting yourself up for failure if it's a day she wants to test your authority. Just walk up, face her hind end and reach down and touch her on the leg. If she doesn't pick up, lean into her shoulder to slightly unbalance her and grab around her pastern and pick that hoof up and hold it. Let her know that the touch on the back of the leg is the polite way of asking but that you will "take" if she doesn't "give". Again, it's a boss thing. See what I mean about being more subtle in the testing?
Ok, so just give her a light tap on her leg before going down to reach for her hoof?

The reason why i always ran my hand down her leg first is because she is so sensitive that if i touch the part of her body that i want to go for right away, she will get startled sometimes.

For ex. She has a bite on her butt, so when i clean it, i dont just apply the wet towel right over it and drop water onto it, she would spook and wouldnt appreciate it. So as I walk to her HQ I run my hand along her back to her HQ. Rub her HQ, then around the bite for a couple secs. Then I will put some of the water from the cloth on my hand and rub round the bite so that she can feel the water and know its coming (doesnt help that the water at the barn is ice water lol, I feel so bad for using ICE WATER)...and THEN I bring up the cloth to the bite and drop water onto it.

The first time she would always move as the water hits her HQ. but then I got a carrot, put it in my pocket...and put her up against the wall. Said "stand", (at first had to start off saying "Stand" a few times) and even as the water was hitting her HQ. Then when i was done, i said "good" good girl and praised her and gave her her treat.

Lots to work on today, Im looking forward to seeing her in a bit. I miss her.
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post #796 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 12:58 PM
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Ok, so just give her a light tap on her leg before going down to reach for her hoof?

The reason why i always ran my hand down her leg first is because she is so sensitive that if i touch the part of her body that i want to go for right away, she will get startled sometimes.

For ex. She has a bite on her butt, so when i clean it, i dont just apply the wet towel right over it and drop water onto it, she would spook and wouldnt appreciate it. So as I walk to her HQ I run my hand along her back to her HQ. Rub her HQ, then around the bite for a couple secs. Then I will put some of the water from the cloth on my hand and rub round the bite so that she can feel the water and know its coming (doesnt help that the water at the barn is ice water lol, I feel so bad for using ICE WATER)...and THEN I bring up the cloth to the bite and drop water onto it.
Horses are touchy about their hineys. I don't think I'd spend as much time with the "Here it comes. It's gonna be cold. Are you ready for it?" as you do, but in that case it's not wrong. Especially around her hiney, where you can get a good, swift kick, it pays to be vigilant and considerate.

But....and it's the BUT part that drives my answer. BUT, she's testing you and moving away from you when you want her foot. It's not allowed. It's kind of like telling a little kid that you're about to give a shot that you're going to give him a shot in the butt and he knows it's going to sting. Then you say, "Heeeeeere it comes." and wonder why the needle ended up in the exam table, he jumped out of the way. You're telling her, "Heeeere it comes and if you want to test me and make me move my feet, here's your chance.". Remember, He who moves his feet first LOSES. So by putting her up against a wall and cutting off her escape route, then just reaching down and taking her foot, you're telling her, "I'm wise to your tricks and by the way, that's MY foot and I'll pick it up if I want to.". The herd leader tells her, "That's MY grain bucket, they're all MY grain buckets and you'll only eat when I say you can.". She won't make a peep at him because she'll either get bit, kicked or run out of the herd if she dares. You have to be herd leader, always, 100% of the time. Yes, it's a partnership but it isn't 50/50.
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post #797 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
Horses are touchy about their hineys. I don't think I'd spend as much time with the "Here it comes. It's gonna be cold. Are you ready for it?" as you do, but in that case it's not wrong. Especially around her hiney, where you can get a good, swift kick, it pays to be vigilant and considerate.

But....and it's the BUT part that drives my answer. BUT, she's testing you and moving away from you when you want her foot. It's not allowed. It's kind of like telling a little kid that you're about to give a shot that you're going to give him a shot in the butt and he knows it's going to sting. Then you say, "Heeeeeere it comes." and wonder why the needle ended up in the exam table, he jumped out of the way. You're telling her, "Heeeere it comes and if you want to test me and make me move my feet, here's your chance.". Remember, He who moves his feet first LOSES. So by putting her up against a wall and cutting off her escape route, then just reaching down and taking her foot, you're telling her, "I'm wise to your tricks and by the way, that's MY foot and I'll pick it up if I want to.". The herd leader tells her, "That's MY grain bucket, they're all MY grain buckets and you'll only eat when I say you can.". She won't make a peep at him because she'll either get bit, kicked or run out of the herd if she dares. You have to be herd leader, always, 100% of the time. Yes, it's a partnership but it isn't 50/50.
Oh ok I get it.

So basically you are saying is, when I clean her bites and cuts, do the same as if i was picking up her foot and put her up against the wall?

Im not the least bit surprised that me getting over to her other side and moving her back to where she stepped from doesnt work, because I used this same method when i was tryin to get her to stop shifting when I would do anything with her tied. I do think it has worked and paid off in getting her to stand tied but my god, it took months, not weeks of doing this every single time, but months!

Anything - brushing her, brushing her mane, tail, etc...when I first got her she would constantly move back and fourth left to right, right to left, constant, non stop. It took ages to get stuff done with her cause i would spend most of the time moving her back to where she was. I did this every single time when she was tied. Thankfully when i left the old barn, she was significantly better, night and day. Didnt shift over nearly as much and for the most part stood tied well.

When we got to the new barn, I felt we were back to day 1 when I first got her. She was all shifty again, non stop. But a couple weeks of correcting her and her settling in and getting familiar with the barn really helped. She now is really good in standing tied. Not perfect (but i cant expect perfect) but compared to before she is like a different horse.

She will do this to anyone though. Even when my trainer rides her and has her tied. My mare will test her by stepping into her. I had a boarder a few weeks ago stand next to her while we were talking. My mare stepped into her. She's cheeky lol. Shes so smart its not even funny. She goes about it so discreetly lol.

So I will start putting her up against the wall for now on. When do you think i can eventually work her away from the wall?
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post #798 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 01:31 PM
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Oh ok I get it.

So basically you are saying is, when I clean her bites and cuts, do the same as if i was picking up her foot and put her up against the wall?

Im not the least bit surprised that me getting over to her other side and moving her back to where she stepped from doesnt work, because I used this same method when i was tryin to get her to stop shifting when I would do anything with her tied. I do think it has worked and paid off in getting her to stand tied but my god, it took months, not weeks of doing this every single time, but months!

Anything - brushing her, brushing her mane, tail, etc...when I first got her she would constantly move back and fourth left to right, right to left, constant, non stop. It took ages to get stuff done with her cause i would spend most of the time moving her back to where she was. I did this every single time when she was tied. Thankfully when i left the old barn, she was significantly better, night and day. Didnt shift over nearly as much and for the most part stood tied well.

When we got to the new barn, I felt we were back to day 1 when I first got her. She was all shifty again, non stop. But a couple weeks of correcting her and her settling in and getting familiar with the barn really helped. She now is really good in standing tied. Not perfect (but i cant expect perfect) but compared to before she is like a different horse.

She will do this to anyone though. Even when my trainer rides her and has her tied. My mare will test her by stepping into her. I had a boarder a few weeks ago stand next to her while we were talking. My mare stepped into her. She's cheeky lol. Shes so smart its not even funny. She goes about it so discreetly lol.

So I will start putting her up against the wall for now on. When do you think i can eventually work her away from the wall?
If she's standing still and being good for her hiney bite to be cared for, then I wouldn't change anything. If she's being shifty and a pain, then yes, I'd go ahead and box her in so she can't go away. I'd definitely do it in any scenario where she doesn't want to stand still.

If I were working with your mare, of even if I was standing talking to you and she steeped in to me, to the point I felt she was intrusive I would correct her sharply and I bet she wouldn't do it more than twice. You probably would be unhappy with me for spanking your baby (I call 'em Little Pookie) but I promise she'd learn that stepping in to ME at least was a very bad idea. That kind of cheek will get you hurt.

LOL! Your mare sounds like my Patti. She doesn't do ANY of her obnoxious things to me, but God help the poor softie who tries to handle her and doesn't let her know right out of the box that she better be on good behaviour. Once you 2 get your relationship all dialed in, I think you're going to be very compatible together. It's just going to take time, patience and work.

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post #799 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 03:57 PM
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Thats what ive been doing is, when she moves away from me...I get onto the other side of her and move her back however many steps she just took. If she took 1 step, then I move her back 1 step. If its two steps, then I move her back two steps. Then when i get back to her other side, I will say "Stand".
Not sure why you are taking the time to "go to the other side of her". You should be able to back her up immediately. I think moving her backwards is better than moving her over. It appears you have been doing that but it isn't working so well. It doesn't matter that she moved OVER, move her backwards, then return to place. Works for me.
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post #800 of 1323 Old 11-14-2015, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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If she's standing still and being good for her hiney bite to be cared for, then I wouldn't change anything. If she's being shifty and a pain, then yes, I'd go ahead and box her in so she can't go away. I'd definitely do it in any scenario where she doesn't want to stand still.
Ok so I will only pin her against the wall if she isnt cooperating.

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If I were working with your mare, of even if I was standing talking to you and she steeped in to me, to the point I felt she was intrusive I would correct her sharply and I bet she wouldn't do it more than twice. You probably would be unhappy with me for spanking your baby (I call 'em Little Pookie) but I promise she'd learn that stepping in to ME at least was a very bad idea. That kind of cheek will get you hurt.
Oh dont worry, Ive seen my past trainer be very hard on her so I dont think anything will surprise me. Today I was grooming her and she tried to swing her HQ my way. I imemdiately put her right back fast and aggresively. My method is, she only gets a smack on the belly if she does it a second time. Fortunately, she doesnt do it for the 2nd time anymore. She used to but not anymore. So is that a good sign or what?

Quote:
LOL! Your mare sounds like my Patti. She doesn't do ANY of her obnoxious things to me, but God help the poor softie who tries to handle her and doesn't let her know right out of the box that she better be on good behaviour. Once you 2 get your relationship all dialed in, I think you're going to be very compatible together. It's just going to take time, patience and work.
How do you tell when your relationship with your horse gets all dialed in?

You're not the first person to say that my mare and I will be very compatible once our relationship gets stronger, one of my past trainers said it as well. Infact a couple of them.
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