The horrible dishonest people out there - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 04:26 PM
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I don't think I have ever seen an industry so full of dishonnest people as horses. It really saddens me, and I can't understand why is it so prevalent? Buying a trailer, buying tack, no matter. Lots of dishonnest folk.
I did have a good horse buying experince with my last horse. I researched the PERSON more than the horse to see what kind of person they were. When I went to buy my daughter a horse, I bought one with an undisclosed medical issue. I guess I deserved it because I didn't research the person well.
It sounds terrible, but, my state I live in has a way to search court records online. I do that, and, if they are on facebook, I go to see if the are friends with others I know, or other horse people I do trust. I am currently looking still for a horse for my daughter. I have one that I am hiring an old lesson person I went to years ago to go and ride, before I even bother to make the 6 hour round trip to look at it. The person checks out with a background check, and, refrences, not sure if the horse will though. We will see.

I would say the most important thing is to also always take someone who knows your riding ability and knows lots about horses with you. Always get a horse with less go than you think. (if you are an advanced beginner, get a beginner friendly horse and so forth.).

When I was looking for my gelding, I actually started telling folks it was for my daughter then, because "some" of them felt bad about selling a bronc to a child. Not all though. This spring I was minutes from looking at a horse and finalizing directions, when I spoke to the wife instead of husband She said "Oh, he's great, I work him a little before my kids get on, but, otherwise great." That was intresting, because her husband swore he had no buck in him! Promptly cancled that appointment.

Karma can be awful, that is all I will say. I think that Girl who got her horse back from me that had the medical issue is having issues with her new horse because she has him for sale I saw. So sad. Apparently she didn't get what she thought she was getting either!
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post #12 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 05:23 PM
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You are always going to get dishonest people whether it is horses, cars or anything else second hand!

The difference about horses is that they have a brain and will soon suss out someone that is going to keep them in order and someone that let's them get away with little things. These little things can escalate onto major problems because the new owner cannot see where they are going wrong!

I have had many 'problem' horses come to me and found absolutely nothing wrong with them. Things they did with their owners were not present when I rode them, the reason for this was because I corrected every little thing they did wrong so the major things weren't worth trying.

A dealer makes their reputation not on the good horses they sell but on the bad ones. I could sell a great horse/pony and when someone asks where they got it from they are reluctant to say because the enquirers might get something better!
Sell a bad one and all will know where it came from.

I did have difficult horses to sell and as out turn over was fast, I would always take it back or, of I knew to was difficult I would sell it as such. They all sold.

Personally when I was buying a lot of horses for clients I would call two dealers I knew. I would say what this person needed, their capabilities, what they were prepared to pay and sit back and wait. I would get a call to say they had a couple that could be what I was looking for. They usually had the right horse for my client.

It saved me a lot of time travelling around looking at horses that were being sold privately which were nothing like their advert.

One family whose daughter had had a terrible time with a pony I had shot as it was a danger to anyone around it, asked me to find something suitable for her. I looked and looked, but nothing was right. I called this dealer and told him the full story. He called me back to say he thought he had the right one but to give him a couple of weeks to fully test it out.
In this time it was used in his son's riding school, was taken out with hounds, indoor show jumped and tested on its own and with other horses.

I went to see it and bought it straight away, subject to vetting. It wasn't expensive considering it was so right. Not a show pony but a great confidence giver, not a bad bone in his body yet, as the child grew in confidence so he would test her abilities.
He was so good that this talented rider's next pony was quite strong and difficult to ride but she had the confidence to master his foibles.

I kept that pony until the end of his days, he went from one family to the next, always giving confidence to nervous children.
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post #13 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 05:28 PM
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Everyone has a different idea as to what should be considered beginner safe.
Mainly due to the fact that it depends on the rider . You have timid beginners that need a dead head walk jog only horse that is docile. other beginners are more confident .
I also see a lot of beginners wanting young horses.
I don't believe you need to be dishonest to sell a horse. I have sold some as two yr oldsand others, and have told buyers how they acted, and had one person tell me its just because of me the horse did such and such, guy bought the horse, called me up a week later wanting his money back because the horse acted just like i told him the horse would act. Horse was mean .. me and my friends used to joke that he was possessed. Traded another horse,my horse plus cash for his horse.. told him she reared a lot he called me up two days later ,, this horse is blind.. she was not blind, I had her Vet checked and she was not blind, he wanted the horse back he traded me , but did not want to give me back the money I paid, plus the mare he traded was not trained as he claimed. and He did this for a living.
You can tell people the truth and they will either listen to what you say , tell you it's your fault, or ignore what you said. I was honest with each horse I sold. If I was independently wealthy I would have never sold any of them.
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post #14 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 05:39 PM
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I have seen some cases of drugging and lying sellers, and its a shame, but I have also seen this:

It is not always the vendors fault when a horse sold misbehaves. It can be because the new owners do not recognise when the animal is starting to get away with little things and this can lead to major problems.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen this. I once sold a stunning gelding I adored. I did everything on him, could gallop bareback down the road in a rope halter, neck reined, ponied, jumped. I tried EVERYTHING I could think of to get him to misbehave, and he never even hinted at trying anything. I sold him, and months later I got a call saying he bucked a bunch of people off and hurt them, that I was dishonest, etc, etc. You could have strapped a lie detector on during the showing and every bit of the conversation would have passed with flying colors. They let him get away with something little, and it snowballed to something big.

No offense OP, but another thing I notice a lot of is beginners(or their parents) expecting them to learn along the way. I don't see many parents throwing their kids in the family car and going "the dealership said this was a good car to learn on, it'll take care of you. Have fun". No, the kids typically read a manual, pass a written test, spend many hours being taught by a parent and/or professional instructor, then they undergo a physical test of their abilities, and finally they are allowed to drive alone. Why don't people take the time to learn what they are doing in the first place? Especially when this is not only a large animal that could hurt the rider and others around it, but also because its a living, breathing, feeling creature that doesn't like being yanked on, kicked, confused and misunderstood, as many unaided beginners are prone to do.
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post #15 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fffarmergirl View Post
I think the label "beginner safe" is very misleading. For instance, some might say my gelding is "beginner safe." He's 12 years old and has a reputation for being a plug/deadhead. He doesn't buck, rear, kick or bite, walks trots and canters (once he trusts a person), knows all his commands etc. I didn't feel safe or confident with him, though. He kept hitting me in the stomach with his head, HARD! He would refuse to lead when I went to get him out of the pasture, go back to the barn as if he was barn sour
I mean this respectfully, in that I don't believe you should feel any blame for your ignorance - we don't know what we don't know & we all start out as ignorant novices, somewhere along the line. What is 'misleading' about that is that you obviously had very unrealistic views about how the animal should behave. They are ANIMALS with their own minds. They are large, reactive prey animals. Even a well trained one with an experienced rider can be dangerous. So the only truly 'bombproof' horse is a dead one, or a wooden one.

Whether beginners have no help available, or they feel they're good enough without it, so many beginners get into these predicaments because they don't have an experienced person/instructor to tell them that... a horse is a horse... along with everything else they need to learn. I've lost count of the amount of great horses turned 'bad' because they were taken on by beginners who refuse to learn from good horsepeople, so they could avoid *teaching* their horses this 'bad' behaviour.
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post #16 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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I just wanted to say, its so confusing. I spent a couple of years on an old horse (23) to get my confidence back after Dads horse and my old pony were throwing me off, and the old mare was great. Then we wanted to get me a pony, and after much trouble, we found my current pony. The ad said, "uncomplicated ride", (it didn't say anything about beginners, but said she would suit any level. She is only 5yo BUT very quiet, experienced and mature. She has done showjumping, XC, dressage, reining and cattle work. I would call myself about an advanced beginner, just not very confident yet, coz of my falls off the others. Anyway, she's as quiet as a mouse for the first couple of months, then she decides the other day she wants to test me out. I got her over it on the flat (or so I thought) but yesterday in our lesson we weretrotting 20metre circles and she was tossing her head around. Then she suddenly starting humping and had a couple of pigroots with me. Luckily, I have a great instructor who talked me through it, telling me, "sit aback, stay calm, youre not gonna fall." I need to work with her and show her I am the boss. Is she beginner safe now? Its so confusing!Grrr!
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post #17 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bauchtanz View Post
I don't think I have ever seen an industry so full of dishonnest people as horses.
Really? Perhaps you haven't had much experience with other 'industries' then. Or it's a 'self-fulfilling prophesy' for you. Perhaps karma, as you mention... Because while yes, there are dishonest people that are into horses, it's the same as any other walk of life - IME the vast majority of people are decent, but there are a few 'bad eggs' in whatever basket you look in. I'm afraid that this post shocks & offends me actually.

It sounds terrible, but, my state I live in has a way to search court records online.
You're right, that does sound terrible!

when I spoke to the wife instead of husband She said "Oh, he's great, I work him a little before my kids get on, but, otherwise great."
I have no idea the relevance of that statement & why you cancelled based on that.

Karma can be awful, that is all I will say. I think that Girl who got her horse back from me that had the medical issue is having issues with her new horse because she has him for sale I saw. So sad. Apparently she didn't get what she thought she was getting either!
So... your first sentence above, you must believe you deserve what you've been copping then?? As for your attitude towards this girl, is that because you KNOW she blatantly lied to you, wouldn't allow a PPE, or...???
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post #18 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 08:09 PM
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Ok, if you know me, you know The Awesome Mr Gibbs, the horse who has carried me back from scared damaged rider, to just a little nervous and recovered rider, the ultimate in good horses right?

We did everything right, he was never advertised, he came via my trainer by word of mouth, the best way to buy.

He is a slow poke, very forgiving etc etc, BUT when I first started riding him I had issues, why? because he was trying it on, and I couldn't sort it out. I had a trainer ride him for a couple of weeks, and the difference was night and day, he suddenly remembered his manners, and stopped being a pig. That refresh lasted the time it took me to be confident on him, and since then I have been able to ride out and deal with the little tests he throws up every now and again.

The biggest one has been at the mounting block, he knows I am nervous, and will sometimes start to move around, well it worked in the past, I'll move, she'll decide not to ride. Not anymore, twice recently he has tested his theory, both times I have been after him straight away, and he then lines up to the block rock solid.

So there is the huge problem with buying and selling horses, most of them will throw in a test or two, and if you fail then they have the upper hand. There is nothing more frustrating then hearing from someone who bought a horse that you had no issues with, to find that they have developed a bad habit.

Oh and buyers need to be honest and realistic about what they want the horse for, and their skill level, so often they just aren't and that is never going to work well.
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post #19 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 08:59 PM
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why are you confused ? you got a 5 yr old horse which is young, you let her get away with some things, shaking her head etc, and whatever a pig root is ? do you mean crow hop ?
You state you are not confident, you got over it on the flat ? I hope you are not jumping.
I feel 5 is to young for a beginner. if you cannot walk trot canter with confidence you do not need a young horse. You need to stay with the trainer.
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post #20 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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I am confused about what a beginner safe horse really is. I know all horses will probably test you out, but is pigrooting really beginner safe? We call it a pigroot, but I think it is the same as a crow hop. Sort of like a miniature buck, but not nearly as bad.

When I said 'the flat', I mean on flat ground, she was fine, but when I tried to take her down a hill, she put up a big fuss, so I got Dad to make her go down the hill quietly, and had him ride her down and up the hill. No, I'm not jumping at all, I just meant like she was well behaved for me the other day when we were trotting and cantering on the flat ground, and the trouble came when we were trying to go down a hill.

I know that 5 is young, but she is a very mature mare. She has experience, has been well trained, and yes, I am definitely staying with my instructor. We are having weekly lessons, she is helping me be more confident and bring the mare out of her bad habits, to realise there is no point carrying on because I am the boss and all that.

I am riding her heaps, and I think it is just because she is young that shes carrying on with the excess energy and all that. Still, Dad and I are taking the horses on a thirty km ride soon, so that should settle her down a bit. :)
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