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post #1 of 22 Old 08-09-2018, 03:01 AM Thread Starter
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Red face Introduction

Hi I'm from Australia. I'm a mature adult and have 2 teenage kids that ride, one has just got her first horse on lease. I have always loved horses and rode as a child and eventually was fortunate enough to get my own Anglo Arab (4 yr old) when I was 14 when we moved to the country. Even more fortunate to take that horse with me to boarding school and enjoyed an equestrian centre education with a horse masters diploma, however my horse was not the right pick for me and after a few years of frustration and disappointment we sold him and I never got another one.

Please allow me to tell a long story as to why I'm here though as I need your help and advice!

My youngest daughter is 14 and has been horse mad all her life. She has been riding casually for years but over past 18 months has weekly lessons, jumping and XC clinics during holidays, helping out around the yards/riding centres, and getting loads of experience. She is confident and a good intermediate rider.

4 weeks ago we found her a horse to part-lease but I knew it was not the ideal horse but it is the ideal situation. Being a part-lease we have no commitment and it is very hard to find the "ideal" horse available in our area on a part-lease so we accept we have to work around the issue and learn with it.

The reason it's not the "ideal" horse for my 14 year old is this... She is a 50% Fresian/standardbred mare that is only 5 yrs old who whilst had some great initial training has not been ridden by the right person. The owner realises she isn't the right person to do the work that needs to be done, and has tried to find people to ride her but most people get too frustrated and it doesn't last long. A few young riders have had part-leases on her but the last one ended 8 months ago and in that time she's only been ridden by casual riders.

The "ideal" part of the arrangement is the owner has 7 horses on the property and these are agisted by other young girls (no adults). The owner is the "horse mum" to them and she supervises all their riding. The property has an arena, a round yard, a track to ride around the property, and access to ride out to an open area and to ride further on to a XC area in the pine tree forrest with fallen logs to jump over. With all the lovely girls and their ponies its just a perfect arrangement and the horse isn't badly behaved (sortof) but has issues that we need to work through either with patience due to immaturity, or bad habits to correct due to previous inappropriate training/use.

We decided to give the lease a go and see how we fared. My gosh she is a beautiful creature and has great potential. My daughter just loves her but now that we're 4 weeks in we have figured out what the issues are but are not clear on the best approach to take. Last ride was a problem - my daughter is getting frustrated and upset. I have some ideas, and of course so does the owner, as does my daughter but not sure which is the right approach and would like to talk it over with other experienced people like I expect to find on this forum - and given you're all strangers that's a good thing to get a fresh approach that is unbiased to the situation I think.

Please guide me where best to post my issues and I'll get right into it.

Many thanks from Australia. Any other Australian's here?
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post #2 of 22 Old 08-09-2018, 03:07 AM
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I’m an Australian ! Welcome!! Can you list the issues at all? Horse training might the subsection of the forum to go to 🙂
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post #3 of 22 Old 08-09-2018, 08:00 AM
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So happy there’s another Aussie member on here! Go Australia!

I personally know a few of my friends who are 14 train horses. One has a 15.2hh ASH who is quite a nightmare to some, very typey and a rear-buck addict. He is competing lower level dressage XC and some jumping. She’s stuck with him for 10 months of falls, broken arms and bruises, and he was skinny and deprived. He is now way better, more collected and calm. A thing to remember is that these things take time, money and effort to produce.

Discussing a long-term plan with coach/trainer is a good idea I think, and drawing up some short term/long term goals would also be helpful, even simple, very simple goals. If she is getting overly teary/upset then maybe the training-of-horses saga isn’t really going to work for you guys. Everyone wants different things, some of my friends have nice horses that don’t need overly rigorous training, and enjoy tweaking small things in there training. 5 years old is a young horse, and I don’t mean to say that your daughter is inexperienced, but the horse may need to go to someone older and has done this before? Just a thought.
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post #4 of 22 Old 08-09-2018, 09:15 AM
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WELCOME to the Forum!!

So, how do you not break your daughters heart is what is also asked...
Reading between the lines...

You have a lease on a horse that has large holes in training, a young rider with limited skills and abilities and a horse owner who is looking for someone to put training on her horse with issues and limited training, still get paid a lease price...
Your daughter needs to progress in her riding abilities and remain safe...
Are we on the right track???
Me, the lease would be finished by this month end or sooner depending upon this horses issues...
Depending upon the horse mothers abilities of over-seeing, teaching and keeping my child safe would have everything to do with me allowing my child to remain here or move on to a different barn and riding environment...
You've had a horse in your past...OK, as a kid, but it was there and you know and see some of the dangers, the pitfalls of this situation.
No one knows the entire scenario and all must be looked at, a complete picture to offer any comment truly helpful.
Me, if this horse has issues dangerous, your daughter is off it today, right now...done.
If we are referring to a horse who is just green, but willing and sweet in personality and try...then I would give it a go and see if your daughter could use the time to work and just strengthen the horses basic riding skill...and hers.
If the "horse-mom" owner is a skilled instructor who is offering help every-ride, eyes on the situation to keep your daughter safe and learning correctly herself this could be a great learning experience broadening your daughters abilities...as long as she is not over-faced or astride a horse unpredictable and endangering her.
If on the other hand the horses owner is just using your daughter for free-training, to ride out and handle dangerous situations this horse is now known, discovered by your daughter... then my daughter would not be sitting or handling a animal with a past-record.
Moms gut instinct needs to come into this one and your daughter may not like the "verdict" today, but keeping her safe is paramount.
Enriching and expanding life experiences is what all parents want for their kids...knowing though when to be a parent, not their friend to keep them safe is a parents job.
The word and action of "No" is sometimes truly needed even if they hate us for it.

Being a parent is sometimes not fun, but a necessity to see and stop the danger from happening if we can.
I offer you hugs of support and ear plugs if the answer is not what she wants to hear...words can hurt, but it is more important she not be hurt cause she is naive and not see herself in danger as you, more experienced can.
Hugs and the best of luck in this...
...
jmo...
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post #5 of 22 Old 08-09-2018, 09:24 AM
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Welcome!
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post #6 of 22 Old 08-10-2018, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainaisabelle View Post
I’m an Australian ! Can you list the issues at all?
Sure...firstly good bits: horse is willing and safe but happiest when out.. on trails, crossing roads, no spooking (amazingly well desensitised), no bolt, willing and capable jumper.

Issues are:
1) cannot/will not? hold the canter in arena through the corners...cannot perform a 20m circle at canter.
2) does not lunge well..ie refuses to complete more than 1 circle without spinning and facing in. Very difficult to move back out...shame as we felt the lunge would help with item 1.
3) hates lunge yard so much will break away from handler to get out the round yard (only roped off)...has apparently jumped out...becomes distressing for all so owner has warned us off it, we tried a few times not sure if we should proceed as we might introduce further problems...we are not trainers
4) not easy to catch...runs away, owner says she thinks its a game. Sometimes easy to catch but breaks free from hold...owner uses a halter with a chain over nose and under chin to assist with rhis but if you dont keep pressure on and get distracted, shes off. Therefore a 2 person job to tack up. I hold, daughter tacks up.
5) she has unpredictable transitions...does a flying leap into 1 bouncy canter stride when goes from walk to trot and she drops off the canter often into her bouncy trot when trying to keep her forward, working into the corners and aiming for circles...she can also trot over a 70cm jump and whilst she likes to jump she will often throw in a last second trot gait at the jump (off the canter approach) unless its huge. (She is 16h).
5) she naps...not a lot and no rearing, just a freeze and sometimes spin but owner showed my daughter how to manage it...and she does, but it requires a firm leg (with spurs) and a dressage crop/whip. Daughter has no fear of her and understands how to work her through it but owner expects her to use a firm/authoritative voice and lately Im hearing my daughter yell in an angry tone that Ive never heard her use before so not keen on her learning this and want her to try a more gentle approach but i can see that isnt going to work just yet...dont know how to work around this problem yet
6) she has float problems...goes on fine but off is trouble...pushes back too early and uses all her weight, then rushes off
7) most of these issues arent there when she goes out for fun rides...but she must have a companion horsejust in arena and round yard (as owner/trainer) does like that type of riding and has let a whole bunch of other young riders bang about on her in arena.
8) as she is Fresian (50%) we are told she simply hasnt matured and doesnt know it yet...and its clear she hasnt yet developed her top line....so my question is...

How do we work her in the arena and round yard...when its a mess? We have learned she needs variety otherwise she gets bored, gets lazy and tries to non-compliant. So we've added poles, grids, jumps etc to keep her interest but we specifically want to work on mastering corners holding the canter and progress to big circles and that doesnt really achieve that.

I think the question is, do we go at her pace (the horse) and lower our expectations or do we get strategic and how do we build a fair plan?

What would be the recommended training approach given the owner is happy for my daughter to be the one doing the majority of the riding and all the arena work. Owner only likes a bush ride (has done a few endurance rides with her...at walk/trot) and isnt a great rider (self confessed) but she has had another Fresian before. Owner is very busy and lately not around. Its fallen to me because I wont let her ride without owner or me watching or riding alongside. Owner has an old bomb proof quarter horse that we use as companion. Good for me 🙂

My daughter is NOT a teary kid, but she is putting in a huge amount of emotional and physical energy into this horse. I dont want this horse to break her spirit. Riding is her life and she does love her and is very willing to put in the work but I jyst want to figure out either our expectations or a plan!!! Each day is just so **** unpredictable...I'm exhausted!!

We are off to first pony club this Sunday she is so excited but scared of being negatively judged for her riding as a result of all the mares movement issues. Poor thing. She has 5 been coping a lot of social media bullying over it. Stupid [email protected]#$%
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post #7 of 22 Old 08-10-2018, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Great reply. Can you please read my reply above to other poster who asked about the issues? Im keen on your feedback after reading the whole story. Thanks heaps!
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post #8 of 22 Old 08-10-2018, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horselovinguy View Post
WELCOME to the Forum!! <img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wave" class="inlineimg" /><img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/wave.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wave" class="inlineimg" />

So, how do you not break your daughters heart is what is also asked...
Reading between the lines... <img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Neutral" class="inlineimg" />

You have a lease on a horse that has large holes in training, a young rider with limited skills and abilities and a horse owner who is looking for someone to put training on her horse with issues and limited training, still get paid a lease price...
Your daughter needs to progress in her riding abilities and remain safe...
Are we on the right track???

jmo...
Yes...thanks for your response. Great reply. Can you please read my reply above to other poster who asked about the issues? Im keen on your feedback after reading the whole story. Thanks heaps!
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post #9 of 22 Old 08-10-2018, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseyfever13 View Post
So happy there’s another Aussie member on here! Go Australia!

I personally know a few of my friends who are 14 train horses. One has a 15.2hh ASH who is quite a nightmare to some, very typey and a rear-buck addict. He is competing lower level dressage XC and some jumping. She’s stuck with him for 10 months of falls, broken arms and bruises, and he was skinny and deprived. He is now way better, more collected and calm. A thing to remember is that these things take time, money and effort to produce.

Discussing a long-term plan with coach/trainer is a good idea I think, and drawing up some short term/long term goals would also be helpful, even simple, very simple goals. If she is getting overly teary/upset then maybe the training-of-horses saga isn’t really going to work for you guys. Everyone wants different things, some of my friends have nice horses that don’t need overly rigorous training, and enjoy tweaking small things in there training. 5 years old is a young horse, and I don’t mean to say that your daughter is inexperienced, but the horse may need to go to someone older and has done this before? Just a thought.
I dont disagree but owner selected us, and seems only keen on having young riders not adults at her place. I
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post #10 of 22 Old 08-10-2018, 04:45 PM
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So, excuse how this may read....
My intent is not to write harshly or pick on anyone but I write quickly and sometimes once read it comes off as obnoxious and brash...not my intention ever!

So, this horse has many huge holes in their training.
She had a rocky start to training and then her retraining was not much better.
Smart and learned how to escape what was not "fun" or rewarding the horse now has some very dangerous habits.
The horses owner sounds a trip...not necessarily meant in the best of ways.
She expects a child to fix what she is condoning and won't fix herself because of lack of ability or fear...
She seems to want younger children and those around who will not question her...knowledge, abilities, her horses antics and nonsense...she wants to be the "know-it-all" yet she has many holes in her training that would give me reason to pause with her handling of past behaviors the horse is/has done...
Remember what I wrote before about how it is going to read...
This lady is trouble waiting to happen and take your daughter with her allowing her to handle a smouldering mess of a horse looking for a excuse to unload and explode on a kid.
The horse has so many problems with so many issues from mishandling and bad training techniques...
Some of what you write are basics never taught, basics taught improperly and now allowed to get away with they are ingrained dangerous "tricks" the horse uses for evasion when he doesn't want to do something...
At the cost of your child's safety...
You refer to so many things done home, in the home arena, round-pen where the horse should excel she does poorly...and you want to take her away from her comfort zone?
She is dangerous to unload and unpredictable.
She can't hold a gait in corners, falls apart and out of that required movement and gait speed, does not listen nor respect her riders cues....I won't go on as it just gets more ugly.
You refer to taking a horse in a trailer/van to a horse show that your daughter is not able to ride alone at any time without a escort.
You refer to your daughter or you having to handle a horse who is a loose cannon on a lunge line...
You refer to a horse who is so unbalanced being ridden she can't hold herself together and is terrible on transition work...
I don't care what breed she is, she is undisciplined, untrained and unruly.
This horse does what she wants, when she wants and how she wants and sounds like she takes her rider for a ride where ever she wants at her whim.
Do I think you should allow your daughter to take such a horse off to a show ground where stress and problem horses is the #1 catalyst of injuries to riders and horses do occur...absolutely not. NO!
Not this horse, not today, not tomorrow and probably not for 5 years if a true professional trainer and handlers are not contracted to straighten out and fix this horses issues.

If this was my child...
My child would not be riding such a horse, period.
My child would not be handling such a horse either, period.
I value my child's life and health to much to let them be in proximity to this mess of horseflesh.
I worked in a professional capacity with messes like this and know just how fast things escalate for the timid, the learning and the unsuspecting person.
I suspect you and your daughter are both beginners, a little better than beginners knowledge in handling and are in over your head...

I'm sorry I don't mean that to sound how it wrote...but I care you NOT be hurt, either one of you.
The owner is using you and your daughter as cheap help to fix her screw-ups...truth.
In truth, they are not being fixed but you are allowing a slow burning fuse to shorten and one of these days soon the explosion is going to happen and someone is going to get seriously injured with bad cuts, broken bones, paralyzed or death...
Yes, it is that serious in my mind.
Are there things that could be done...sure.
By a true trainer, a very experienced rider with years of repairing and fixing screw-ups like this under their belt...yes.
By well meaning "beginners" I just see a disaster in the making and someone hurt badly.
I could explain in detail many things to help you but I won't.
This horse has to many issues to deal with all rolled into one big mess...
You need to know a lot more, have a gut instinct and reaction to fix, to repair and to train correctly the animal...and be prepared to get the stuffings knocked out of you.
I won't describe and put you in that kind of jeopardy...
This isn't your horse.
This isn't your battle and it isn't your or your daughters responsibility to fix someone elses serious mistakes not take the beating this horse threatens to do to you both for the owner to save a few $$ where it should be wisely spent.
I stand by you are in over your head.
Please stop putting yourselves in jeopardy and danger.
Find another place to ride and lease a nice horse who your daughter can just ride and learn to be a better partner with...learn to ride in harmony.
Right now she is frustrated, scared and not having fun if you are honest and she is with you...
She may feel "challenged" doesn't mean she is enjoying riding a chore every ride.
One of these days that ride may be the ride of her life and she never get astride again because of it...for whatever the reason and outcome...
I've seen to much working in the horse industry...

You asked for help and honesty...
Honesty makes me tell you to run away from this place as fast as you can while whole and safe yet.
I painted a nasty picture....sadly, I think it is one very real to what your daughter is dealing with and you...
Leave before you become the next statistics this horse has added to his name.
I wish you the best, but please think hard on what I wrote from years of experience and looking through glasses not rose-colored as they say.
I wait to hear of your new lease horse who your daughter takes to shows and does well on, who is a pleasure to work with and ride and she enjoys...a horse when done riding she smiles and laughs speaking of not cry in frustration and fear.
...
jmo..
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