I've got zero bad habits! - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 01:45 PM
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it should be very interesting hearing your impressions as you go on this journey.

you may have to use what feels like violence , but you can think of it more as "the horse moving into his own pressure. like, if a horse moves his shoulder hard into you, he's putting pressure on YOU, and you poking your finger hard into his shoulder, or having your rope smack his shoulder is just him running into the pressure that he created.

if you were to run out and smack him, that's different.

while it's neat that you want to learn totally by trial and error , you may enjoy reading some books on other person's exploration of horses.

and, stay safe. if ever it's a toss up between philosphy and safety, choose safety. you can philosophize tomorrow, if you are alive.

oh, and which Indian language is yours? my son is very interested in languages, in particular aboriginal languages (native languages) of native Americans and native Australians.
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post #12 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GreySorrel View Post
Native American, really? What tribe do you affiliate yourself to?
I am Navajo; my wife is Spokane. I mention my wife's tribe as well because we tend to follow matriarchal lines and so I consider myself Spokane as well.

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Originally Posted by GreySorrel View Post
Horses can be read if we take the time to do so, a shift in weight, ears, nostrils, even the eyes will tell you much, and let's not forget the tail...lord do I know when my Quarter Horse gelding Terry is mad....
*nods* My wife has a two year old gelding from the rez that is a registered Native American Quarter Horse.


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This place you work at, will they help you go further with your riding skills and ability since you are, as you say, a clean slate with no misconceptions or bad habits? Do you know if you will pursue english or western riding?
I think they would help, though frankly, they are about to let me break horses for them at my current stage of ignorance after seeing me on the unbroken horse yesterday. I'm not foolish enough to take that job btw, but that they would offer it gives me some pause.

They do give lessons here, and one can learn quite a bit from observation. I understand that it is not the same as doing but I don't believe that I miss much. i.e. Different riders during lessons have extremely different postures, use wildly different leg pressures, watching where they rest their hands and feet and being able to see the horses reactions to each of these different riders is very instructive - especially because there is a limited number of lesson horses so to see the same horse react differently to the same verbal and physical cues because of the unconscious cues the rider is giving them has taught me quite a bit already.

Oh - and most of the riding is Western around here, though there are two English riders that take lessons here.

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As for coming here, no offense, but half the people who post here have no earthly clue, are young, new owners, etc. and I would rather be working with a competent horse trainer and talk to them about my misgivings than say oh that sounds like sage or sound advice, do it and really muck up my horse or myself or both.
You raise a very good point and I have an answer but will ask your indulgence because it is from my scripture. I can't think of a way to answer honestly without quoting it...

Quote:

Believe nothing, O monks, merely because you have been told it or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.





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There is nothing wrong with asking, but how will you know what to throw out with the bath water and what to keep and learn if you have no real basis to compare it to?
I'll make mistakes. Of that there is no doubt. But I am hopeful that the implementation of the above quote will help me to minimize those errors. Ask questions and then examine the answer carefully. Insure that it is respectful to the animal, based on the little that I have learned. That it complements his or her nature, is kind, etc.

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And you do know that horses do need structure, a good strong leader and discipline at times don't you? It doesn't mean beat them or abuse them, but there are times a smack is the best method to get across to a large animal you mean business and to pay attention.
I watch them in the herds, sometimes entering and interacting with them. I have found, for instance, that one way to address a challenge is to make eye contact and keep it. A horse might try to intimidate me but do not like to be stared at and will try to look away, turn to kick me, etc. By continuing to face him or her and turning with the horse so that it can't turn away (and be prepared to duck a sudden bite or head butt) they'll eventually drop their head and become docile. Or maybe I've just been lucky so far. ;)

It's a bit more dangerous for me this way no doubt, but it minimizes the use of force. Thanks so much for your response! I'm running in and reading them between mucking stalls...only fourteen more to go!
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post #13 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
it should be very interesting hearing your impressions as you go on this journey.

you may have to use what feels like violence , but you can think of it more as "the horse moving into his own pressure. like, if a horse moves his shoulder hard into you, he's putting pressure on YOU, and you poking your finger hard into his shoulder, or having your rope smack his shoulder is just him running into the pressure that he created.
May I ask you, is there a version of horsepersonship (not sure if that's a word but I'm using it anyway), that is akin to the martial concept of 'when pushed; pull. When pulled; push.'? Regardless, I can clearly see what you are suggesting and don't find it objectionable even if the horse finds it uncomfortable. Thank you for that explanation.

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if you were to run out and smack him, that's different.
Agreed.

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while it's neat that you want to learn totally by trial and error , you may enjoy reading some books on other person's exploration of horses.
*nods* I certainly do and shall. Hoping to learn a bit before I invest so I can use some discernment choosing books, you know?

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and, stay safe. if ever it's a toss up between philosphy and safety, choose safety. you can philosophize tomorrow, if you are alive.
A salient and practical point. :)

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oh, and which Indian language is yours? my son is very interested in languages, in particular aboriginal languages (native languages) of native Americans and native Australians.
Well, I am Navajo...but, if you can think of a way that you are comfortable with me sending it to you, I have completed a draft of my second book (first novel). Your son is welcome to it. It is a young adult fantasy in which our hero Josh travels to another plane of existence where he meets up, lives for a spell, and has adventures with an aboriginal people. Their language is introduced into the book and Josh considers:

Quote:
It's the first language that's really ever interested me and I caught myself wishing I could satisfy my foreign language requirement in school by learning it. I can just see me talking to my guidance counselor back at school about this. “So Josh, Vajatindi you say? The language of the Tindi? What part of the world are they from?”
“Oh, they have to be from this world? Never mind.” Yeah, that would go over well.
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post #14 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 04:18 PM
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consider reading Mark Rashid's books. he has a philospophy I think you will find coincides with what you are looking for, and he is a black belt in Aikido.

also, you may enjoy reading Tom Moates.

I would LOVE to see your novel. is it written IN Navajo? what do you call "navajo" in your own language? I know the people call themselves the "Dinei" or something like that, no? but how do you say the word for the language?

my son is a linguist and has dictionaries of many native American languages. he would love to work on documenting endangered languages (of which Navajo is NOT, actually). languages are disappearing at an alarming rate. you may have 2,000 speakers of an aboriginal language, but if all of them are old, and just one generation from death, that language is just one generation away from death. scary.
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post #15 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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consider reading Mark Rashid's books. he has a philospophy I think you will find coincides with what you are looking for, and he is a black belt in Aikido.
I am so looking forward to picking up one of his books. It may be today. Thank you!

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also, you may enjoy reading Tom Moates.
*takes notes*

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I would LOVE to see your novel.
Then we'll certainly make that happen. PM me an e-mail addy to send it to or conversely, PM a request for mine and I'll attach it in a reply.

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is it written IN Navajo?
No, although many of the names of the characters in the book are Navajo names. The language I introduce in the book is fictitious but does follow many of the grammatical nuances of native languages (I speak three). For instance, there is Son-see-a-rae which is a slight spelling variant of the Navajo word for bright morning star. It is also the name of a dear friend for whom the book shares its dedication with my wife. There is a cat-like critter who figures prominently in the book as well whose name is Nash. Nashdoitsoh is our word for mountain lion and she does fancy herself at least as fierce. :)

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Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
what do you call "navajo" in your own language? I know the people call themselves the "Dinei" or something like that, no? but how do you say the word for the language?
Dine - with an accent over the 'e'. Although we never did have a written language until historically recent. The Navajo language is Dine bizaad or, and I really don't prefer this one and can't determine its roots, is Naabeeho bizaad.

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my son is a linguist and has dictionaries of many native American languages. he would love to work on documenting endangered languages (of which Navajo is NOT, actually). languages are disappearing at an alarming rate. you may have 2,000 speakers of an aboriginal language, but if all of them are old, and just one generation from death, that language is just one generation away from death. scary.
I call Alaska home and we are losing languages there at the rate of one every two or three years. The Navajo language is spoken now by almost 175,000 people thanks to a huge push by the tribe. It was 90,000 a mere twenty years ago.

My thanks again for the name of the authors. I will make use of them. I have heard a few names but am reluctant to speak them here until they are recommended...don't want to put idea's in anyone's head. But the two you mentioned I had not heard of. Very exciting!
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post #16 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 04:55 PM
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Well, it all depends on how "romantic" you want to approach horses. I mean, anyone who spends time with horses is unendingly iimpressed with how they bring out increasing depths in our understanding of ourselves, and of another life form. and those things can be applied to others, and so we grow.

but, it can become too much head tripping and then, it' like wearing too much perfume; makes me want to gag.

a horse is still a horse. I saw a great horseman back in Sept who said, "a horse has a very small brain, so when he has a thought, it just about fills up that whole brain". this was mentioned becuase he places a lot of importance on making sure that your horse's thought is available to you, not off on his buddies or his food or whatever.
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post #17 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 06:26 PM
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Yagr, may I ask the name of your first book? I am always looking to find something new to read, and always ready to support Native American's. When I went to North Dakota to the Crazy Horse Memorial, I had a man, who was dressed in full battle regalia come up to me, then ask what Nation I belonged to. I had to smile and politely told him, "Blackfoot Nation". Then he asked if I knew they were to be phenomenal horsemen, nodding I explained that my dad always said if he could ride half as good as me he would have it made! Course, I learned everything from my dad so I am very fortunate indeed.
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post #18 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 07:10 PM
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Another good horsemanship book is, Horsemanship through Feel (I hope I remembered that correctly) by Bill Dorrance.

As for physical correction, remember this, you could not hurt a horse with a slap. Look at how hard the herd boss horse will correct a member beneath him/her. Your slap is like a fly.

The two reasons I'll physically get after a horse pretty hard are; a horse that bites, or kicks. A bite can break your arm, or worse, and a kick can kill you.

One thing I have really enjoyed during my journey with horses is how much they live in the now. Not worried about yesterday or tomorrow.

Enjoy your journey!
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post #19 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 07:17 PM
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I once went to a Powwow, and there had a lengthy discussion with an Ojibwa lady on beading. I showed her some stuff I'd been doing, and bless her heart, she had a good laugh. but, she was polite enough to ask me "what tribe are you?" , when she must have known I am as white/European as they come. she was just being sweet.
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post #20 of 29 Old 10-03-2015, 07:33 PM
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TinyLiny...I LOOK Native American, and when my hair is braided down my back...yea...no mistaken me for a "Pale Face". :)
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