Need instructions how to put pelham bit on bridle with snaffle and one set of reins - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Yogiwick View Post
Oh OK sounded like it was for control which didn't make a ton of sense. That makes more sense but I feel if done up correctly it won't be twisting? I'll stick to not using it, I don't show or ride hard core.
Thanks.

BugZapper, the daughter is an experienced rider. The mother is an amateur and came on here looking for guidance as to how to put it together. If you read I specifically asked (in a NICE way) if the daughter was also an amateur as I don't feel the bit is appropriate if so. The mother responded and clarified that she is not. Just because some people do things differently doesn't mean it's wrong. Especially with something as stupid as swapping bits. Your trainer does it one way and I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with this trainer's way. Maybe she doesn't have a pelham atm? Does it matter? Seems like a really stupid thing to be upset over.

I'd be ****ed if I was an experienced rider and got kicked off my horse so the trainer could try a new bit. And surprisingly sometimes it can be tricky to hire someone simply to be able to ride the ponies. There really aren't that many 80lb adults running around let alone ones who ride well.

Thought you didn't work with H/J barns? Since other people clarified you CAN show in these bits.

Don't see how the trainer being in the hospital is at ALL relevant. I have a scheduled appointment for an all day hospital procedure next week. Obviously that means I'm a poor horseperson..

To everyone saying it's bad to ride with one rein. I agree it's not what the bit is designed for BUT is not a bad thing IF the person understands there is constant curb pressure and rides accordingly. Look at a Kimberwicke or something... Hackamores... A lot of those your ride with some forgiving contact, no you shouldn't be yanking or cranking but the OPs daughter is experienced and this was bought for a VERY specific purpose...

Wow this thread has gone O/T... I see NOTHING that should have people jumping to conclusions...

My daughter and I started riding around the same time. She had some group lessons before me, but in the 18 months she's been riding (private lessons 2-3x a week and group lessons 1-2 times a week),
Yogi, with this statement :

your definition of an experienced rider is scarey!
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post #42 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Yogiwick said this before I posted those details.

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post #43 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BugZapper89 View Post
UMMMM ! I think he has been riding longer then 18 months. This kid is still a beginner rider with only 18 months worth of lessons. SO NOT appropriate and very much would be taking my daughter and running the other way
Your choice to take your child somewhere else. Free world, etc. But at the time you initially posted "converters are not appropriate to show in" and "any trainer suggesting these would really worry me", you did not know how long the OP's daughter had been riding. You even mentioned "real trainer". So, you are backpedaling and have lost credibilty.
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post #44 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:03 PM
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The European & British pelhams generally have a much shorter shank than the ones seen in the US so there's much less leverage action - the curb chain should also be fitted so it lies close enough to the horses face that it limits that leverage. Combined with the D - connectors that divide the action equally between the upper and lower reins its probably no more than you'd get with a Kimberwick
The two reins might give an 'either /or' option but from what I've mainly seen very few people ever use it even in a double bridle and just put pressure on both reins equally regardless of how experienced they claim to be
Re. the show ring - I'm not sure what classes they have in France but a Pelham even with two reins isn't seen much in UK show classes where the double bridle is expected - other than in novice, lead rein and first ridden where it has to be a snaffle. Cobs are the most likely to wear a Pelham or a Rugby Pelham in the show ring because their often shorter more fleshy mouths don't suit two bits.
Pic of Pelham showing lip strap
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post #45 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BugZapper89 View Post
My daughter and I started riding around the same time. She had some group lessons before me, but in the 18 months she's been riding (private lessons 2-3x a week and group lessons 1-2 times a week),
Yogi, with this statement :

your definition of an experienced rider is scarey!
The point of the picture was it's used in showing by top level riders which you said isn't true...

I know lots of people that have been riding 1 year + that I would trust FAR more than some people that have been riding 10 years+.

So correct, I did not know that information at the time, but I will retract "experienced," but there is no way to judge skill over the internet. 18 months is long enough.. a poor rider may be working on basics, but a naturally talented rider that puts in effort may be somewhat advanced at that point. Advanced enough to use a harsher bit with a converter and her trainers guidance and watchful eye to work on one specific thing.... If you wouldn't ride there that is fine..no one is saying you must. So we don't know the riders skill level but she is able to w/t/c/j and ride the more difficult horses and the trainer wants too *try* a different bit (I'm assuming in lessons only to start) on her own horse. Why is this something to jump on?? For all we know the daughter is an excellent rider. Maybe she isn't but we have NO way of knowing and it sounds like the daughter is working with an experienced trainer so we must trust to her judgement and stay out of it as we are random people on the internet who DO NOT know all the details.

I completely agree if the daughter is a complete beginner that it's not appropriate, but again, we CANNOT judge skill aside from the information given which sounds good enough to me.

I'm assuming you're above working with beginner riders so maybe you do not understand when I'm saying that 18 months can teach the wrong rider very little and the right rider a whole bunch. So absolutely no way for us to judge.
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post #46 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:27 PM
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FWIW, I've had very inexperienced riders trail ride our horses in a western curb without a problem.

English riding involves constant contact, which would make it much harder to use a curb properly than the western approach, but folks ought to stop worrying about "leverage".

It isn't pressure that hardens a horse's mouth, but the failure to release pressure at the right time. That was a point I first encountered reading Chamberlin, and Hilary Clayton makes the same point in this article:

Rein Check
On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness

By Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, DACVSMR, MRCVS

...As dressage riders and trainers, we value the quality of lightness; but when I measure the amount of tension associated with a contact that feels correct to an experienced rider, it oscillates from about one pound to five pounds. Although five pounds sounds like a lot of tension to hold in your hand, it really doesn’t feel like a lot of weight in a dynamic situation. Some dressage texts lead us to believe that fully trained horses should take only a few ounces of contact with the rein. However, this advice is highly
subjective and is not supported by actual measurements. Moreover, if rein tension is a consequence of the natural movements of the horse’s relaxed neck, then the mechanics of the motion dictate the amount of tension...

...It is difficult for a rider to correctly assess the amount of tension in the reins when the contact is dynamic and tension is constantly changing. Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..."

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research...ckJune2011.pdf


The pressure used by good dressage riders turned out to be much higher than Clayton had expected, but it still works without the horse getting a hard mouth because it is TIMING that is critical, not PSI. If you have contact that follows the horse, and adjusts as needed to how the horse responds, then PSI is not very important.

Also, the amount of mechanical advantage provided by most curb bits is not overwhelming - typically around 3:1, so someone applying 2 lbs of pressure to the reins gives 6 lbs to the mouth...and it is not that hard to ride with 2lbs of pressure or less. That is true of western and English curbs. It depends on shank ratios, and that ratio is normally around 2:1 lower:upper regardless of style (altho there are exceptions...I've seen 5:1).

A rider who balances with the reins or who snatches on the reins should not use a curb bit. I'm not sure they ought to use a snaffle, either. But since the instructor picked the bit and will be watching when it is first used, the odds of anything cruel happening is miniscule. Unlike any of us, the instructor has seen both the horse & the rider, and will be doing so while the bit is first used.
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post #47 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:54 PM
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Makes me smile when you get all the palaver over whether to use D rings on a Pelham when many people roding western have some pretty long shanks on a western bits that are far harsher.

Personally I don't like the Pelham much but it is better than the Kimblwick.

However, I have found hem very useful bits, with couplings on ponies that get a bit to strong for small children. It has never done the ponies any harm and better the rider has control than is hooked off with.
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post #48 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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Makes me smile when you get all the palaver over whether to use D rings on a Pelham when many people roding western have some pretty long shanks on a western bits that are far harsher.

Personally I don't like the Pelham much but it is better than the Kimblwick.

However, I have found hem very useful bits, with couplings on ponies that get a bit to strong for small children. It has never done the ponies any harm and better the rider has control than is hooked off with.
I'm glad you said this. I think our trainer has had the same experience, and this horse of my daughter's is of a very stubborn race (the Mérens). :) She's come a long way with being responsive and obedient under saddle as her muscles have developed and she's been consistently ridden, but we just need to tweak one little thing and she thinks the pelham will get us there.

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post #49 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 01:01 PM
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BSMS what has not been measured in the top report is the leg pressure. If a rider, going for correct collection, has to use 5lb of rein pressure they should also have the same of leg pressure.

Watch polo players, not many of whom called be called horsemen, see the leverage of a gag bit along with a standing martingale, drop noseband and often running reins as well as a reins attached to th gag cheek, see how the horses are hauled around and it is a rough game so quite a lot of hauling goes on. Yet, having had several ex polo ponies I have yet to have one that I would class as hard mouthed.
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post #50 of 129 Old 11-07-2014, 01:40 PM
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A Pelham is one of my favorite bits, but it was designed to be ridden with 4 reins. If your daughter doesn't know how to fit adaptors on this bit, I seriously doubt that she knows how to hold and control a horse with 4 reins.
The ONLY use for a Pelham adapter is trail riding a stone broke cold trail horse that likes that particular Pelham and you ride on loose reins with no contact.
Get a different bit.

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