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post #11 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
If I understand correctly, over time being barefoot the run forward heels and toes will either correct or not correct and is one of the things determining whether the horse will successfully transition to barefoot over time. Is that correct?
'Is that correct' is a bit of a loaded question, when people have such different ideas! So, probably stating the obvious to you by the sounds, but weigh up all opinions rationally & don't take anyone on blind faith.

'Run forward' feet are a product of bad/inadequate trimming, and will be easily fixed with some regular, well balanced trims. Toes should be brought back to where they should be in a trim or 2. However, if 'crushed forward' heels have been chronic for a long time, if heels are chronically contracted & weak, esp if since before maturity, they may be structurally weak & prone to 'running forward' and may never become strong enough for 'high performance barefoot' without protection/support. **Basic feel I get from those pics is that this isn't a prob for him tho.

For the most part, it depends on diet, living environment, work environment & how much you do with him, as to whether he can become a 'rock cruncher' or will always need boots on some surfaces.

Quote:
I'm puzzled about the suggestion that the hooves need to be beveled? I thought I was but apparently not. What I've been basically doing is to file the hoof wall at a 45 degree angle to the sole and up to or nearly up to the white line or water line. On some of the retired horses that have badly flared hooves from neglect I have been filing past the white line
Yes, I meant at the toe, rather than a 'mustang roll'. To bring the breakover back to where it should be. They seriously don't look like the need a lot. Check out e-hoofcare.com which should explain to you what I mean & why.

Quote:
I take nothing from the sole or the frog. I am trying to exclusively use the sole and the white line as a guide to the wall trim.
That's good IMO. I think it's best to leave a bit much than take too much generally - you can't put it back! Doesn't look like the sole needs any off anyway, but the bars may stand to be lowered a little, esp as heels are long & forward still. Frogs should only be touched when thrushy, daggy material needs to be removed, and for eg. on the first trim, to find the true apex of the frog, it may need to be pared.

Quote:
They have one long article on when to shoe but did not mention when booting would be a viable option.
I think they're more into shoeing is why. IMO when to boot is any time the horse needs more support/protection than it has bare, and when boots are a suitable option. Sometimes boots aren't a suitable answer for the particular horse or work it's asked to do, and fixed shoes may be the best option. Egs may be hunting/jumping in slippery condition, racing, certain hoof confo or the way a horse moves.

Quote:
The depth to the apex of the frog as an indication of sole thickness brought a question to which there is likely an obvious answer. I've read that as the structures within the hoof capsule begin to rehabilitate one of the things that happens is that the sole becomes more concave. This seems like it would cause a greater distance from the hoof plane to the point of the frog which would indicate a thicker sole when it is not thicker. I think I'm confused.
Yep, I'm confused by that! I don't know that it's absolute, like I think Ramey believes/teaches, but the sole thickness around the apex of the frog is a *relatively* uniform depth regardless of the health of the foot & rest of the sole, and the depth of the sulcus there gives *an indication* of the rest of the sole. Eg. if the sole is really flat, the sulcus close to ground surface, the sole around the outside of P3 would be ultra thin. So as a foot becomes healthier & maybe more concave, the sole should become thicker, although the point we're talking about will be roughly the same thickness.

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Lastly, I thought about posting in an appropriate sub-forum but as a new member I had not made and introduction and...
Yes, best to consider the most appropriate part of the forum, but embarrassed to say, I had the 'horse riding' section open in another window, thought that's where I was where you posted. Pardon!
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post #12 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveduffy View Post
the question is what type of area is hondo going to work in rocks, sand gravel ?
Yes, rocks, sand, and gravel. Occasional patches of dirt.

That said, I am a novice beginning rider that enjoys just walking with Hondo. I enjoy it enough that I have not even taken the time to teach myself to sit the trot or to post. I keep telling myself I will but I don't. For recreation I really don't want to do more than walk. I'm 72 with a bit of bone on bone in one knee and am happy to just be out on the trails with Hondo and my dog Meka.

When gathering cattle there are some very short spurts of trot and gallop which are done two point as with this terrain ya never know when the horse may decide he needs to jump over something.

I have began to understand that if a horse is used hard on rocky surfaces that chipping can occur on any hoof no matter how hard the hoof is. I'm guessing that's why most endurance events require either boots or shoes for competition.

And for now Hondo does wear boots on all four for rides. At the end of a year or whenever he can travel without tender feet I'll see how he does barefoot. That's the plan. If there is any hoof damage he will immediately go back to either shoes or boots.

I will add this about boots. He seems more aggressive in the rocks and less picky about where his foot is going to land with boots than he did with shoes.

Some of the trails on the ranch are almost brutally rocky to the point that a horse that has not been trained in the rocks has difficulty. Hondo is a little bulldozer through the rocks.
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post #13 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
and may never become strong enough for 'high performance barefoot' without protection/support.
loosie, that was a very long and detailed response. Thanks so much!

I am actually very prepared for Hondo never being able to barefoot in comfort. He had been barefoot in turn out for over a year when I first rode him. I was told he was acting sore footed and we put shoes on him. I was also told he had always tended to land toe first which I have since learned is a sign of some bad chronic stuff.

I did some slow motion video studies of him walking on concrete after I was told that and all four were landing perfectly flat so that put the question of underdeveloped heels back up in the air.

When I pulled his shoes I only rode him one time barefoot. He was looking for soft foot landings so much I couldn't wait to get back and get off of him. I did not ride again until his front boots came. He was still tender on his rears so I didn't ride again until his rear boots came. He really seems to like his boots.

I am using Renegade boots and they recommend trimming the hoof to the boot which they recognize is a little less aggressive than the usual mustang roll.

Using Saran Wrap and epoxy putty I even made a cast of the inside of the Renegade so I could hold it near Hondo's feet for comparison.

And the Renegade boot has a bit of a break over built into the toe that is becoming more pronounced with wear.

So I guess Hondo will have to deal with a different breakover until I try him without boots which is around 10 months away.

For now I just wanted to be certain I wasn't doing something too wrong as I'm out here totally alone in this venture, with regard to barefoot trimming.

I will be working on the pictures!
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post #14 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 12:24 PM
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Some of us new to horses aren't as fortunate as Harold to get an opportunity to work on a ranch and learn hands on and get experience that way. And wow, sounds like he is doing a great job with Hondo and I wish him continued success! But that doesn't mean that us newbies haven't been reading , studying, asking zillions of questions, and trying to learn all we can, and yes 24/7. Some of us have been lucky enough to have great experienced horse people helping/ guiding us along the way. And this forum is also a wonderful place to get help/insight from experienced and knowledgable horse people. Even though we may not be as experienced as some, we just want to give a horse, sometimes an unwanted, unloved horse, a chance at a new loving home. Our situations are not always perfect, and yes we are learning as we go. And if we are lucky, we will have horses that forgive all our mistakes and learn to love us anyway,
knowing that we are trying to do our best to care for them. And if we have learned anything, we always know safety first. And not put ourselves in a dangerous situation.
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post #15 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I have began to understand that if a horse is used hard on rocky surfaces that chipping can occur on any hoof no matter how hard the hoof is. I'm guessing that's why most endurance events require either boots or shoes for competition.
A lot more endurance horses are going barefoot actually, and I reckon that is pretty much the most ideal 'high performance' situation for horse & hoof! 'Chipping' is just wear, 'self trimming' ~ a truly natural trim. In horses who are well balanced & healthy-hooved this is not a problem at all. While as in other 'walks' there are many unhealthy-hooved endurance horses( those that have healthy bare feet(whether part-time booted or not) do not find hoof wall chipping a problem. With the amount of training they do, the hoof adapts & puts out more growth too, to equal regular wear. In these ideal situations, hooves may only need protection from excess wear on particularly long or not yet conditioned for rides. That's the ideal world...

Quote:
And for now Hondo does wear boots on all four for rides. At the end of a year or whenever he can travel without tender feet I'll see how he does barefoot.
If he's comfortable in the paddock and you ride on yielding footing, then you might try him unbooted now even. But whether now or in a year, yes, agree it's vital to give precedence to his comfort when considering management.

Quote:
I will add this about boots. He seems more aggressive in the rocks and less picky about where his foot is going to land with boots than he did with shoes.
Great! Conventional rim shoes do tend to have a palliative effect, as feeling can be reduced somewhat. But reduced feel in hard going also effects proprioception, so they may be less sure footed. While the horse may not feel it so much, if in unpadded rim shoes & the horse steps on a rock badly or such, the risk of injury to sole & frog/heel is also just as high as if bare... excepting a bare horse may feel it & not put his full weight on it, but 'limp' a step to *avoid* injury. In boots, rather than being protected from the feelings, they're protected from the ground, with an extra layer to shield weak soles!

Quote:
I am using Renegade boots and they recommend trimming the hoof to the boot which they recognize is a little less aggressive than the usual mustang roll.
I did not think of a 'mustang roll' as at all 'aggressive' until recently, but it sounds like some people do take it to the extreme. To me, all a 'mustang roll' is/should be is to bevel the outer wall(only) on ground surface, so that leverage & chipping of the edges isn't problematic. I think it does depend on the terrain the horse lives/works, and rougher & dryer environs tend to 'want' a bit stronger roll, but if you're removing more than just the outer wall from ground contact, that's something else, not a 'mustang roll. Not necessarily conceivably wrong, depending on situation(flaring, disconection for eg), but... well, maybe as I'm in Oz I should just call my interpretation a 'Brumby roll'

Quote:
And the Renegade boot has a bit of a break over built into the toe that is becoming more pronounced with wear.

So I guess Hondo will have to deal with a different breakover until I try him without boots which is around 10 months away.
Yeah, as obviously every horse is a bit different, they do make boots with a 'rolled' breakover, but many horses need a shorter one, so that tends to be where the wear is the most. When it's really a problem, people may even rasp the toe of the boot to improve breakover balance. As mentioned, he's a little forward in the toes still, and if the boots exacerbate that much, I probably would rasp. Boots still last well & do the job fine even if the toe is worn/rasped right through, but obviously not ideal, just a consideration...
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post #16 of 47 Old 10-27-2014, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
A lot more endurance horses are going barefoot actually, and I reckon that is pretty much the most ideal 'high performance' situation for horse & hoof!
I did not know that. I had just seen where some 50 mile/day events required shoes or boots. 50 miles sounds pretty extreme. More than I'd wanna ask myself or Hondo to do for certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
If he's comfortable in the paddock and you ride on yielding footing, then you might try him unbooted now even
He does not have a paddock other than the 600 acres he feeds in. That said, much of it is soft sandy soil and he is ok for certain unbooted on that. But when we hit the trails he is doing anything and everything to miss the rocks and hit the dirt in between. With boots he just goes right up the middle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
I did not think of a 'mustang roll' as at all 'aggressive' until recently, but it sounds like some people do take it to the extreme.
Renegade was just pointing out that boot retention would be better if the hoof was trimmed to the boot. The roll I'm doing is still "fatter" than the boot as there is always dirt collected between the toe and the boot. So I intend to try to "skinny" it up a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
As mentioned, he's a little forward in the toes still, and if the boots exacerbate that much, I probably would rasp.
I think Hondo may do his own rasping! :)

I first bought 0 boots for the front and some EBay Marquis for the rear. They said as the foot was allowed to expand naturally that the hoof would enlarge somewhat and to not measure them too tight.

Later on I lost a Marquis, my fault, and decided to replace with Renegade on the rear. The fronts were getting a little tight so I ordered 1's for the front and put the 0's on the back. He has only two rides with them on the back so they are pretty much the same as when they were on the front.

The picture below will show how far back Hondo moved his breakover point. Or at least so it looks to me.


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post #17 of 47 Old 10-28-2014, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
I did not know that. I had just seen where some 50 mile/day events required shoes or boots. 50 miles sounds pretty extreme.
Yup, if it's more than a one day event, that could well be too much for even a dedicated 'rock cruncher'! Yes, if healthy & allowed to adapt, hoof growth will keep up with wear, in more 'normal' situations, including endurance, but of course, there's a limit. I don't know your endurance rules over there, but perhaps they allow barefoot for 'easier' rides but this distance is where they draw the line.

Quote:
He does not have a paddock other than the 600 acres he feeds in.
Oh to be up in the fenceless Territory again...

Quote:
Renegade was just pointing out that boot retention would be better if the hoof was trimmed to the boot. The roll I'm doing is still "fatter" than the boot as there is always dirt collected between the toe and the boot. So I intend to try to "skinny" it up a bit.
Yeah, the firmer the fit the better with any boot, but I'd still be doing what's 'right for the feet in question, so I'd expect that while quarters may need little 'roll', you might get dirt built up in the toes of your boots for him!
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post #18 of 47 Old 10-28-2014, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Oh there are fences out here for sure. Thing is though, you can cover 28,000 acres without needing to go through one. But then there are gates that open up to more public lands. But I get all the riding I want so far without opening any gates.

Here is a pic of a cast from the inside of the Renegade toe. A nice roll i think. I'm just taking more vertically off the front which I picked up somewhere, so I need to do a little less there I think maybe for a better fit.



I'd like to return to your comment that Hondo's toes do look a little forward run and that most can usually be brought back in a trim or two. I've read that bringing the toes back is the first step to the heels returning which is important for the redevelopment of the digital cushion and maybe other stuff.

As mentioned, I have been trimming from the bottom of the hoof at around 45 degrees from the hoof plane and almost up to the white line. Is there anything more that can be done beyond that to aid in bring the toes back?

I really appreciate all this help.

Harold
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post #19 of 47 Old 10-28-2014, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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BTW, I have had Hondo on Horseshoer's Secret for four months as a dietary supplement.

Any thoughts or opinions on this or other favorite hoof supplement?
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post #20 of 47 Old 10-28-2014, 05:22 PM
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Hi, yeah, I've worked on stations where it was 50km to the front gate & I've mustered for days without seeing fences... those were the days!

Better pics will allow us to give you more specific opinions on the whys & wherefores.

Yeah, I don't generally think it's that important to file flares on the surface of the foot - for boot fit & other reasons it can sometimes be helpful, but so long as they're addressed from underneath, so the mechanical forces don't act against them.

Well balanced nutrition & healthy diet are vital to health, of hooves along with the rest & I do think the vast majority of horses benefit from supps because their diet is likely deficient/imbalanced in at least some things. While products such as HSS are 'general specifics' if you know what I mean, and can be helpful, they may not be best, or even appropriate for some horses - who knows what your particular horse gets from his 'pasture'. So for accuracy & so you're not wasting your money on stuff he doesn't need... or that's lacking what he does, doing at least a basic diet analysis (feedXL.com is one great resource for that) before choosing which products would best 'fill the gaps'.
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