New Member/New to Horses - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
 25Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 47 Old 10-28-2014, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
Well, I'm almost on overload. Posting here and your comments have driven me back into reading again and more.

I just finished reading Ramey's articles on the sole and on the frog.

He says that the healthy foot will have 3/4 inch from the hoof plane to the apex of the frog. Otherwise the sole will be thin. Apparently, the deeper the distance, the thicker the sole underneath. Hondo has about 1/4 inch. Not sure how much dead sole if any there is at that point so could be over 1/4 inch but not much.

Pete says this measurement is more important than heel or toe length and is the most important indicator of foot health. It's also a less subjective measurement.

I may change my mind when I wake up in the morning, but at the moment I'm thinking the distance from the hoof plane to the frog apex, or amount of concavity, is the thing I will monitor as progress, or not, toward becoming barefoot capable.

Ramey seems to say that the proper concavity tends to pull the toes back and the heels back to where they should be giving the hoof shell the proper cone structure.

Hondo had been barefoot for a year or two before I got him without any trim at all. When we went to shoe him the frog was heavily trimmed with nippers. The wall was trimmed with nippers to way behind the white line and sloping. Then the hoof was handed to me to rasp down flat which required taking a lot of toe sole off.

Knowing what I have learned since causes me to shudder.

I may add frog pads to the boot just to get a little more frog action with the boots. But the frog is not above the hoof plane anymore so fingers crossed within the next ten months the hoof will restructure itself.

Ramey seems to believe that frog action alone is the most important thing to producing concavity which in turn brings the hoof wall back into form which means bringing the toe and heels back to where they belong. He seemed to say the dropping of the coffin bone is what actually pushes the toe forward and drags the heel with it.

All this is based on my understanding of what I've read. But I do not always bat 100 in the understanding department.

So for the short term I'll likely go into a holding pattern on the trim since you and others think it may not be too far off.

At your suggestion I did try Hondo bootless today. He was fine in the old lake bed covered in bermuda grass. When we hit the rocky road he started looking for the powdery spots. When he missed or there were none he winced occasionally and said ouch! After about a mile I couldn't take it any longer and headed back for his boots. He thanked me and was fine after that.

I have read about the importance of diet for the hooves in the past along with the diet analysis you mentioned. Had not thought seriously about it until today when I realized I would not know what to analyse. I don't know what he eats other than the bermuda grass. But they don't spend near all their day there. They leave and can be seen eating mesquite leaves and various high desert native weeds or whatever. Desert forage is usually pretty good stuff and unusually high in protein.

So the best I may be able to do is to contact an ag extension or similar for what nutrients may be missing, if any, from this high desert area browse.

I may hold up for a couple months for more pictures. The depth angle shot I already know is shallow. The front shots should show fair balance with some minor cracking up to where the hoof has grown since HSS. I was thinking about stopping it but but his hoof sure looked better today when I was looking at it above the mark where the HSS was started.

Ramey also mentioned some sole hardeners including iodine which I may try also and see if it helps when barefoot. I may ride him a short distance every week or two just to see how much or if he changes in his ouchiness.

I'm glad I joined this site. Thanks to all posters and of course especially loosie. And don't forget admin or the site would no even be here.
Hondo is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 02:41 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 20,572
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Well, I'm almost on overload. Posting here and your comments have driven me back into reading again and more.
You didn't know what you were getting into mate!

Quote:
He says that the healthy foot will have 3/4 inch from the hoof plane to the apex of the frog. Otherwise the sole will be thin. Apparently, the deeper the distance, the thicker the sole underneath. Hondo has about 1/4 inch.
Firstly, it's been a long time since I've looked at Ramey's stuff. I think there is a LOT of great info there, but as with everyone, some open to speculation. Just to clarify, it's the sulcus/groove at the apex of frog, not the frog itself, that 'should' be *somewhere around* 3/4" from ground surface *when horse is standing on hard, flat ground. I do think this is helpful to *consider*. This is an average, not an absolute, and some will be more or less, but perfectly healthy, thick soled, and some will be thin soled regardless of concavity, because there are other factors involved, such as stretched toes... IMO, just take note of sole depth indicators like that & be considerate of it in management. It may change a lot or a little... wouldn't be too concerned, so long as there is some depth there.

Quote:
Not sure how much dead sole if any there is at that point so could be over 1/4 inch but not much.
The live sole may be 1/4" thick(hopefully at least) but generally speaking, it's highly unlikely there will be that much dead sole anywhere.

Quote:
I'm thinking the distance from the hoof plane to the frog apex, or amount of concavity, is the thing I will monitor as progress, or not, toward becoming barefoot capable.
It's an indicator, not an absolute. Re 'barefoot capable' I think comfort, including good movement, heel first landings, etc, because horses are so stoic as to often not show obvious 'discomfort', is by far the most important indicator.

Quote:
Ramey seems to say that the proper concavity tends to pull the toes back and the heels back to where they should be
Maybe my faulty memory, but I thought I remembered Ramey was in line with my thinking about that - that it's pretty much the opposite; bring toes & heels back into balance(with consideration for sole depth & extra support if needed), and 'concavity' & sole depth will follow. You can't trim to force concavity(well, you can, but...), and if you don't address long toes, that will stretch the sole thinner.

Quote:
I may add frog pads to the boot just to get a little more frog action with the boots. But the frog is not above the hoof plane anymore
No, they look pretty good & not obviously needing added frog support. But brings to mind something I've put into practice since lessons with Dr Robert Bowker(well worth looking up, if you want more fascinating brain overload!). He is, among so many other 'strings to his bow', a neurobiologist. He told us that because of stimulating nerves in the frog, you can place a terry towelling(rough) wash cloth under the foot of a 'sensitive on hard ground' horse and it will feel relief, even if it's seriously lame. (I don't think I was the only one in a room full of experienced trimmers to take that with a big chunk of rocksalt!) He also said he found a terry cloth, or something soft but rough under the frogs(& one reason he credits deep pea gravel as great for horses), provides much more stimulation/circulation, so can really improve health & strength of heels. Well, cynical or not, I've seen with my own eyes now, horses who are in terrible pain standing on concrete, who have been relieved with a terry towel!! And I have since used that stringy/pimply rubber matting they use in cars, glued in my boots in triangles for the frogs.

Quote:
Ramey seems to believe that frog action alone is the most important thing to producing concavity which in turn brings the hoof wall back into form which means bringing the toe and heels back to where they belong. He seemed to say the dropping of the coffin bone is what actually pushes the toe forward and drags the heel with it.
I agree that the function/health of the caudal hoof is of extreme importance to the whole, but I don't think any one 'part' is exclusive, or should be considered so. IF that is what he said, I disagree. Depending on environment, exercise, horn health/strength, etc, walls will overgrow & deform, regardless of health of heels.

Quote:
All this is based on my understanding of what I've read. But I do not always bat 100 in the understanding department.
Do any of us?? Our learning & perception is also affected by our prior learning & experiences, so we all take/remember/forget different 'lessons' from the same words

Quote:
When we hit the rocky road he started looking for the powdery spots. When he missed or there were none he winced occasionally and said ouch! After about a mile I couldn't take it any longer and headed back for his boots.
That's great, that you're obviously attentive to how he's feeling. Next time, tie the boots to the saddle so you don't have to go back!

Quote:
when I realized I would not know what to analyse. I don't know what he eats other than the bermuda grass. But they don't spend near all their day there. They leave and can be seen eating mesquite leaves and various high desert native weeds or whatever. Desert forage is usually pretty good stuff and unusually high in protein.
Sounds like he probably has a pretty reasonable diet! And if he is able to roam 100's of acres, chances are there are some different soil types/areas with different minerals too. In that sort of situation, I probably wouldn't get too excited about analysis & supps, unless there are health probs. You can get pasture/plant analysis done, if you can collect a 'cross section' of what he eats, or contact, as you mention, a local 'ag' person or such, who knows the local area. Or get blood or hair analysis for nutrition though.

So... now I've further overloaded you, have fun in... sorting the wheat from the chaff & making sense of it all! I look forward to hearing your further adventures!
loosie is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
So... now I've further overloaded you, have fun in... sorting the wheat from the chaff & making sense of it all! I look forward to hearing your further adventures!
Ha ha. Thanks for that! I was actually more depressed I think than on overload. I was remembering the first couple of rides on Hondo after being barefoot and no trimming for a year or two and being told he was tender footed and needed shoes. And remembering the huge chunks of heel and frog that were removed. His frog was all layered over and I have no idea if it was reaching the ground or not. I had no idea what a frog was for even at that time. I was told he had always had a tendency to land toe first, even though my slow motion video later showed flat landings at the walk. Thinking about him being tender after a year or two barefoot and his shallow flat feet began making me worry that he might never be a candidate for barefoot.

But if it can take up to a year or more for some to transition I have 10 months, or more, to worry some more.

I will soon be purchasing a sturdy and bumpy automobile mat! BTW, how thick would you suggest the frog pad be?

Oops, but now I re-read this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
No, they look pretty good & not obviously needing added frog support.
Or what about some terry cloth in his boots to tickle his frog? JK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
You didn't know what you were getting into mate!
Now there's an understatement!! But ya know, when I slide into that saddle and head off down the trail, it's worth every bit and more. And when I stand in the field holding the halter open and Hondo casually walks over and places his head into it, it's worth it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
The live sole may be 1/4" thick(hopefully at least) but generally speaking, it's highly unlikely there will be that much dead sole anywhere
I failed to say what I meant: The measurement was about 1/4" to the sulcus/groove but it could be farther to the live sole although at this point I'm not sure how to determine how much if any dead sole there is. I have an abject fear of touching the sole with a knife!

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Next time, tie the boots to the saddle so you don't have to go back!
Thank you! I got a nice morning chuckle out of that one :)

I did not know about testing the blood and hair for nutrient adequacy. I don't even have a means to transport him at the moment but that should soon be remedied. I already have plans to have a blood test done for overall health. After a fecal test and targeted worming he looks like a different horse. It was on this forum where I was reading for information on a worming program, which he had none, where someone had posted to do fecal exam rather than just guessing. Duh! He definitely feels better too and is a little less tolerant of some of the aggressiveness of some of his herd mates. For himself, he is totally non-aggressive and mostly stays away at the perimeter of the herd but maintains a watchful eye for what they may see or react to.

I shall henceforth attempt to refrain from making one sentence summations of what Ramey says! :) Well, at least until I gain a LOT more experience and knowledge!

Here are two of the articles I've been reading and rereading. Old stuff to you I'm sure but informative to me. I did note where he says reversing distal decent can be a long and slow process.

Distal Descent

Cornet
loosie likes this.
Hondo is offline  
post #24 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 08:38 PM
Started
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: I'm an American girl living in southwest France
Posts: 1,563
• Horses: 6
Hondo is one lucky horse, that's all I have to say. :) Welcome to the forum, Hondo's human!
loosie and greenhaven like this.

When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes. ~ William Shakespeare
ecasey is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecasey View Post
Hondo is one lucky horse, that's all I have to say. :) Welcome to the forum, Hondo's human!
Thanks and Hondo is luckier than you might think. He was heading to the auction soon which would have likely have been to the killers due to his sarcoid problems before I took an interest in him.

All that said, I feel luckier than him! I read one guy that said a horse that will meet you in the field when carrying a rope and halter is worth his weight in gold. At today's market that's a lot of chump change!
loosie likes this.
Hondo is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 09:11 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 20,572
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
a horse that will meet you in the field when carrying a rope and halter is worth his weight in gold.
...and an owner who's horse WANTS to come 'work' with is worth his weight too!
loosie is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
I've read at least some on many of the more popular horse gurus. The one who really seems to grab me the hardest and is becoming my guru of sorts is Mark Rashid. Not that great on his video stuff but his books are outstanding, to me at least. And Hondo neighs his approval.

Hondo has benefited greatly through my readings of Rashid. His books might well be ho-hum for the experienced horse person but for the beginner I almost think they should be required reading before attaining a horse license. :) Smilie but I'm serious!
loosie likes this.
Hondo is offline  
post #28 of 47 Old 10-29-2014, 10:15 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 20,572
• Horses: 0
^Not ho hum, but insightful reading!
loosie is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 10-30-2014, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
Well, after rereading Ramey some more I decided I should take a closer look at Hondo's feet to see if I could reduce the load carried by the hoof wall.

After carefully finding the white line with the smooth side of the rasp, there was plenty more to take off with a 45 degree bevel back to the white line.

Sighting down the hoof which I had not done for a while looked like a classical example of high heels I've seen in pictures so I took them down a little. They were worse than the flat pictures I posted showed.

The white line at the toes on the front were red. I had remembered reading that was a result of too much sugar or the wrong carbs.

Then I read http://swedishhoofschool.com/PDF-Art...ed_laminar.pdf and was glad I rasped as I had. I should have taken pictures of the red for comment but my concern got in the way of thinking about it.

A straight edge over the hoof walls on all four did not touch the frogs. Close in back but further at the apex. Since Ramey and others insist that loading/unloading the frog and sole is the main thing for rehabing to barefoot, growing frog and sole, I decided to put frog pads in his boots so he would at least get some good stimulation when ridden.

I had a pair of Marquis boot pads that I cut up into 4 sorta frog shaped pads and epoxied them to the inside of the Renegade boots.

We plan to take a little ride tomorrow so I'll see how that goes. I have never ridden with boots on the back with the front barefoot. I may try that a little just to see if his fronts are as tender as his rears when ridden barefoot in the rocks.

I'm not sure what to do about the red beyond taking the pressure off the hoof toe. I do give him about 1/2 gallon of alfalfa pellets every day or two and four or five apple treats. I don't know if that's enough to push him into the red or if he is seeking out the type browse that does it.

I know I sure didn't like the looks of it. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow.

Hmm.....went back and reread the SwedishSchool PDF and they don't mention sugar at all just excessive forces on the hoof wall. But it seems I read about the sugar/carb problem somewhere.
Hondo is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 10-31-2014, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
Trained
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Williams, Arizona
Posts: 5,674
• Horses: 0
Am wondering if this is what you meant by suggesting I bevel Hondo's toe a bit to bring it back some. Rocker?

Toe Rocker - How to apply a Toe Rocker for correct breakover
loosie likes this.
Hondo is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New member, My horses & photography jessicashallperish Horse Pictures 5 05-18-2012 04:07 PM
New Member Horses TeamPenner17 Horse Pictures 18 02-24-2011 07:21 PM
New member - Draft Cross Sport Horses Prodomus Draft Horses 10 07-05-2009 03:23 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome