Is this pain or agression? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
 74Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 31 Old 01-29-2015, 12:45 PM
Foal
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 49
• Horses: 0
OP --

While I agree with the *far more experienced* posters here, I have to say this sounds like much more horse than you asked for. I am not sure if the seller was ignorant or dishonest, but this horse didn't turn into a nightmare in 10 days because you fed her some grain and didn't yell at her Exactly The Right Way That One Time.

I suspect her previous "docility" had a lot to do with the fact that she was underfed to begin with. (And what do you want to bet this is why the previous owner kept her in such poor shape?)

To me, this horse seems like a significant retraining effort that may be above your pay grade (and is certainly not what you thought you purchased when you entered into this agreement). So to me, unless that trainer can help you make very significant progress very quickly (AND this horse really does revert to Happy Docile EasyGoing Gal) , this looks like a bad, and maybe unsafe, fit.

Again, I'm just a beginner myself, so I'm not speaking from any expertise here, just a gut feeling that this is a very bad match.
cebee, Hailey1203 and Mulefeather like this.
emcdevitt is offline  
post #22 of 31 Old 01-30-2015, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
Foal
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 25
• Horses: 0
Update 2

AHaha, lesson learned on the switch. By switch I mean a 4 foot long, flexible, sapling type branch that I picked off of a bush. It would leave a welt on a human but probably not a horse, though it did raise the dust off Scarlet a good foot into the air. At the time I really only took the switch with me for what was in my mind, a fairly unlikely emergency. I thought it was good enough until I could get back to the farm store. It's just the emergency happened. And Scarlet only looked at me when I fully expected her to run away...Trust me, it does not feel good to find yourself in that situation, knowing you have to make that horse move, only to realize you've misjudged your stick.

Let me point out though, that insufficient though my stick may have been, if it were not for the advice of this forum I would have had nothing in my hands at all. God only knows what would have happened then. So seriously, I can't even begin to express how grateful I am for everyone's help.

So I did buy a lunge whip and Scarlet knows exactly what it is without me ever having to have used it. Now her manners are much better, she is more submissive. The vet said she is indeed a good horse for a beginner (he has horses too), and surprisingly, that she has no restrictions despite her age (mid to late teens) and slightly arthritic legs. The vet also seemed to really want a buddy for her, so we are having a very adorable mini-donkey delivered this weekend. The donkey is easier for me to take care of while I'm still learning horse skills, that way Scarlet won't have to wait on me and my learning before she gets a friend.

I have found a trainer. But...despite Scarlet's improved behavior I still just don't trust her now. I think I just need my confidence back and hopefully the trainer can help me with that : ( But like you said, emcdevitt, I feel like this escalated very quickly. I'm sure I must have made mistakes with horses before, but it's never led to a confrontation like this.

She's also airborne more than any horse I've seen. It's delightful to see and I'm glad she feels so good now, but honestly it makes me even more nervous to handle her. It's just different from the plodding trail horses I'm used to that never ever went by any means other than land. I think my horse's spirit animal must be an impala.

I do know a bit more about Scarlett's history now and what led up to this crazy behavior change. Apparently she was the newest horse in her old herd of about 5 or 6. She worked her way up to horse #2 in the pecking order. When those horses were given grain they were all fed from a single trough and whoever could eat the most, the fastest won the food. It looks like she was given something to eat every time a person visited the field and has been trained to expect this. On the other side of that coin she hasn't really been asked to do anything for a human for a little over a year now at least (I feel at one time though she was a highly trained and obedient horse). And finally my husband at last admitted, despite my strict orders, he was allowing my daughter to feed Scarlet the grain while I was at school. So I feel like this is why Scarlett came stepping up on her that first episode when we tried to leave without giving her anything.

Anyhow, it looks like the first visit from the trainer will be in a little over a week (pushed back due to the incoming snow). Hopefully I can stop being such a wuss again and then maybe this story will have a happy ending.

Thanks everyone!!!!!
Sugar likes this.
MagStar is offline  
post #23 of 31 Old 01-30-2015, 04:08 PM
Foal
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: WA
Posts: 16
• Horses: 0
The other replies have a lot of useful information. I'll just second what most of them have said here: this behavior is not acceptable, no matter what's causing it (although I highly doubt it's discomfort). Based on my experiences, it's pretty clear that this horse believes it's the boss. Some horses are naturally easy-going, others take time to develop respect for their people. Ground work will go a long way.
If you have a roundpen or small pasture, read up on it and then try "join up." I'm not always on-board with Monty Roberts but this is one technique that, if done correctly, can instigate a dramatic change in behavior. I've had the craziest horses following me around the roundpen like dogs after an hour of showing them how dedicated I am to being the leader.
Wings27 is offline  
post #24 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 09:50 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central MS
Posts: 1,380
• Horses: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagStar View Post
AHaha, lesson learned on the switch. By switch I mean a 4 foot long, flexible, sapling type branch that I picked off of a bush.
excellent choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagStar View Post
It's just the emergency happened. And Scarlet only looked at me when I fully expected her to run away...Trust me, it does not feel good to find yourself in that situation, knowing you have to make that horse move, only to realize you've misjudged your stick.
hmmm .... maybe it was enough to make her stop, and that could be a good thing, but if your intention was to run her off, get after her harder.

i would suggest running her off if she is following/herding you and then displaying aggressive behavior

here is a general idea of an escalation procedure

1. i tell them to "git" -- aka get away from me
2. i advance and wave something at them (whatever is handy - like your switch)
3. if they advance aggressively i whack them until they go away --- if they just stand there i yell and wave whatever i have
4. if they are still there, i whack them -- if i have already whacked them -- i whack them repeatedly

so, if you whacked them once and they are just standing there, that *might* be enough to convince them not to do it again --- but if you want them away from you -- escalate until they go away

chase them if need be

i have seen new horses introduced to a herd and it can be a bit rough
so don't feel bad about setting your place in the herd
it is better to spank them thoroughly than to get injured

i introduced a pony to my herd a year ago -- they ran that poor thing off for a day and a half before letting her join up

you might look into some Natural Horsemanship join up techniques
jmike is offline  
post #25 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 12:19 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: England
Posts: 139
• Horses: 2
Pain, sorry. If she is arthritic she is probably stiff and is trying to relieve it. Has her riding changed at all?
Dustyisace is offline  
post #26 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 01:00 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central MS
Posts: 1,380
• Horses: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustyisace View Post
Pain, sorry. If she is arthritic she is probably stiff and is trying to relieve it. Has her riding changed at all?
sounds more aggressive to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagStar View Post
Scarlet followed us as she usually does and we were interacting with her and petting her and everything was fine until we started to leave. Then Scarlet starting walking quickly toward my daughter, sort of stamping her front feet and nodding her head very dramatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagStar View Post
Then today I took a wheel barrow and fork out there to clean up her droppings. She came over as usual and watched, then she walked away, then all the sudden she came running toward me. I stepped aside to let her pass, then she leaped, and then she reared, kicking both of her hind feet right where my head had been a few seconds before.
cebee likes this.
jmike is offline  
post #27 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 02:48 PM
Foal
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: waaaayyy up North
Posts: 67
• Horses: 2
Holy cow - how terrifying! I think I would have wet my pants. I have never seen a horse act that aggressive and didn't even know they were capable of it.

My friend is boarding a mustang who she says is very aggressive - now I guess I know what she might mean by that. When I was boarding my horse with her, he was in the same pasture with that mustang and she wouldn't let me go out there to get him without a lunge whip. I was afraid of the mustang because of what she'd said, so the moment he even thought of coming near us I'd start cracking the whip and chasing him and yelling at him to get lost, and he'd run off. I thought maybe I was overreacting to her warnings but now that you describe that behavior I'm sure glad I did what I did.

Reading all of these stories about scary behavior from horses is starting to make me think maybe I don't want one again after all LOL
fffarmergirl is offline  
post #28 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 02:54 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 2,664
• Horses: 1
Well you won the argument, but this mare is certainly not what I would call a beginner’s horse. I agree wholeheartedly that she sounds like way too much horse for a beginner family to take on- at this point, the donkey would probably be a better fit (but I’m also biased in that direction!).

A good horse for an inexperienced horse person is one that is very well-broke, with excellent ground manners, and she sounds like neither. Your vet is a vet, not a trainer. You don’t call a vet to train your horse to saddle, you don’t call a farrier to look at their teeth. An experienced trainer should evaluate this horse and can help you learn to work with her, but if you are over-horsed, you are over-horsed. There is no shame or problem in admitting you need and want a mini-van when someone tries to hand you a Formula 1 race car and tries to tell you it’s the same thing – it’s not.

It might be possible to find someone who wants a project horse, and might happen to have an older, well-broke horse that simply needs a quiet retirement home with a family who only wants to do quiet trail-rides a few hours a week- and more importantly, might be willing to trade. There are too many good horses out there to waste your time fussing with one that is dangerous or doesn’t suit your needs. You don’t win gold stars for hanging onto a horse you’re scared of and don’t trust. Let Scarlett go to a home that suits her needs, and find a horse that suits your needs.
jmike likes this.
Mulefeather is offline  
post #29 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 03:09 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central MS
Posts: 1,380
• Horses: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulefeather View Post
Well you won the argument, but this mare is certainly not what I would call a beginnerís horse. I agree wholeheartedly that she sounds like way too much horse for a beginner family to take on- at this point, the donkey would probably be a better fit (but Iím also biased in that direction!).
i think it all depends on the owner and horse in question

example:
my wife rescued a boxer and brought it home to meet the other dogs
she was extremely aggressive when she got home
i happened to be at work
so my wife was in extreme distress when i got home
i watched for about 10-15 minutes to see if i could figure out what was going on
i caught the dog, rolled it over into a submissive position for a few minutes
she has been the absolute sweetest dog ever since

i guess once some animals are firmly placed into their role/position, they are happier and less prone to aggressive outbursts

OP might need some advanced assistance to make this happen, but it is within the realm of possibilities that once the horse understands her role and position, she will settle into and end up being a great horse

on the other hand, it is also possible that this horse will require constant reminders of her position in the "herd"
jmike is offline  
post #30 of 31 Old 02-02-2015, 04:12 PM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 2,664
• Horses: 1
JMike, it's possible, which would be why I recommended she talk to a trainer and have the horse evaluated first before making any decisions. Not recommending throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, but for a family that is already scared/not trusting (husband, daughter, and OP included) of this animal, they're already starting out at a significant disadvantage in taking on a challenge right out of the gate.

I definitely agree with professional guidance being the first place one should go in this situation, and if it can be sorted out then so much the better. I do think that beginner families are very susceptible to the "hard luck horse" romantic idea, which is why they should know above all else that they don't have to keep an animal that needs more than they can give.
jmike likes this.
Mulefeather is offline  
Reply

Tags
behavior problems , pain , training

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
23 and in pain Horses4Healing Rider Wellness 14 01-02-2014 09:35 PM
Pasture agression Shiavo Horse Talk 3 02-18-2012 02:18 AM
Pain in the you know what! UnrealJumper English Riding 1 05-24-2010 09:05 PM
"Girthy" Agression Getting Worse Silversun Horse Training 23 05-22-2010 03:22 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome