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post #31 of 86 Old 04-23-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jmike View Post
Day 7

got a late start so i could replace a breaker
sent DD and DS out to catch Dixie --- the searched the north east section
horses were in the north west section

i *think i did some ground driving -- not real sure
walked behind them with 2 switches pushing them forward along the trail (kids had the halter)
by that time they were back in the main part of the pasture and DD walked right up and haltered her - no problem

DD started leading Dixie to our work area -- problems popped up immediately
Dixie tried to cut DD off by walking in front of her
may be related to the issues i have turning her
so, i told DD to first push her neck away and if Dixie resists, slap her neck

the majority of our session was leading figure 8's -- il would highly recommend that to anyone -- just walking figure 8's

once Dixie was less resistant -- i haltered whiskey -- DD and I alternated leading each other around figure 8's

by then it was starting to get dark -- so for a special treat -- i put DD on Dixie bareback and continued walking figure 8's

we unhaltered them and let them go
then we got their feed buckets out and i had DD bring the feed out into the pasture and "protect" them for about 5 minutes (we have feed time behavioral issues as well)

once that was done - she fed them and we talked about the difference between discipline, correction, bad, and wrong

when a horse bites you or kicks at you -- it is bad and it should be disciplined (chased with the whip or whatever)

when a horse does something wrong it is a mistake, and it should be corrected (example was turning right instead of turning left -- but in hindsight i think i should have used the example of saying whoah and the horse slowing down instead of stopping)
First of all, when a horse bites, kicks, charges, or rears up at you, NEVER EVER EVER EVER CHASE the horse with the whip! You will create an aggressive and fearful horse, who may, instead of doing these things to threaten you, actually HURT you. When a horse does this, take your lunge whip and smack it on the GROUND forcefully near the horse, not ON it. At the same time, take a step forward and SLAM your foot on the ground, and then forcefully in your best training voice shout something like "HEY!". This is all that is needed to get the horse away and reprimand/discipline. If you CHASE that horse around the round pen, you WILL create a very dangerous situation. I NEVER run at a horse or chase it. Sure, I drive them away with certain signals or actions, but I NEVER chase them. The last thing you want is a fearfully aggressive horse.

Next thing, when a horse invades your space or walks ahead of you, back them up aggressively. "Aggressively" doesn't mean beating them up. It just means putting a lot of pressure on the halter and taking the lead rope to give them a few slaps in the chest will get their feet moving faster. By pushing the horse's neck away, you will teach the horse to flip their head around, rip the lead out of your hands and take off. This is a difficult problem to fix and not something you want to start.

Bottom line, chasing or beating a horse solves NOTHING, and only aggravates and escalates the situation. To understand how to correct a horse, you only need to watch your horses in the pasture. A more dominant horse will move another horse will move another horse with a swish of the tail or a little show of teeth or hoof. That is all it takes, and 99% of the time they will never chase that horse. And even if the horse does that to another horse, that doesn't mean that you should.
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post #32 of 86 Old 04-23-2014, 05:34 PM
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Another thing-I've found that if I simply look where I want to go I don't have to think so much about where my seat is. It becomes more of an automatic thing. Just be sure that you are giving the correct leg and rein aides, and always look where you want to go.

However, I have a good seat from basic dressage and lunge lessons, so I know where my seat is and that I am centered, which is a huge factor. The horse will feel it if you are out of balance and will not respond as well.
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post #33 of 86 Old 04-24-2014, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by horseluvr2524 View Post
First of all, when a horse bites, kicks, charges, or rears up at you, NEVER EVER EVER EVER CHASE the horse with the whip! You will create an aggressive and fearful horse, who may, instead of doing these things to threaten you, actually HURT you. When a horse does this, take your lunge whip and smack it on the GROUND forcefully near the horse, not ON it. At the same time, take a step forward and SLAM your foot on the ground, and then forcefully in your best training voice shout something like "HEY!". This is all that is needed to get the horse away and reprimand/discipline. If you CHASE that horse around the round pen, you WILL create a very dangerous situation. I NEVER run at a horse or chase it. Sure, I drive them away with certain signals or actions, but I NEVER chase them. The last thing you want is a fearfully aggressive horse.

Next thing, when a horse invades your space or walks ahead of you, back them up aggressively. "Aggressively" doesn't mean beating them up. It just means putting a lot of pressure on the halter and taking the lead rope to give them a few slaps in the chest will get their feet moving faster. By pushing the horse's neck away, you will teach the horse to flip their head around, rip the lead out of your hands and take off. This is a difficult problem to fix and not something you want to start.

Bottom line, chasing or beating a horse solves NOTHING, and only aggravates and escalates the situation. To understand how to correct a horse, you only need to watch your horses in the pasture. A more dominant horse will move another horse will move another horse with a swish of the tail or a little show of teeth or hoof. That is all it takes, and 99% of the time they will never chase that horse. And even if the horse does that to another horse, that doesn't mean that you should.
sorry, i am going to disagree

i have chased mine away on occassion because they were doing bad/dangerous things .... they are not fearful and what i am doing is not characterized as "beating" ... same as spanking a child is not characterized as "beating"

i can tell you with certainty that a slap to the neck is a lot softer than a horse bite or a horse kick .... and they do that to each other all the time
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post #34 of 86 Old 04-24-2014, 10:41 PM
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sorry, i am going to disagree

i have chased mine away on occassion because they were doing bad/dangerous things .... they are not fearful and what i am doing is not characterized as "beating" ... same as spanking a child is not characterized as "beating"

i can tell you with certainty that a slap to the neck is a lot softer than a horse bite or a horse kick .... and they do that to each other all the time
There is a difference between "chasing" as in taking a few quick strides forward and driving them off, and "chasing" as in literally running at them with a whip. I wrote the whole comment entirely out of experience. My mare actually became aggressive towards the lunge whip because of misuse of it. I'm not exactly sure how it got started, as I never ran at her with a lunge whip. She still is aggressive towards it on occasion, but is much better than before.

I have no problem with giving a horse a swat or a slap to the neck. However in this situation the mare was going forward into DD's space, so she needs to be forced to move backward out of DD's space. By slapping her on the neck in this situation, it is teaching her that it is ok to walk ahead of the handler as long as she is not right next to them. The horse should always be at the shoulder, and not in your space bubble. It's the principle "always do the opposite of what the horse wants to do", though whether I follow that principle depends on the situation. In this situation, yes definitely. It is the same idea as when you ask a horse to go right, and he goes left. Do you correct him by forcing him to go right or left then? If you force him to go left, even if he's getting turned in tight circles and getting kicked in the side, he's still won. He got to go the way that he wanted to. But if you force him to go right, you are reinforcing your command to go right, and reaffirming your position as the dominant lead horse.

All the advice I've given comes from my own experience, not theory or something I've read. I have learned first hand what works and does not work.

Something I learned the other day-I read a post on here that if you are in a pasture and you want the horses to get out of your space, take a lead rope and swing it behind your butt as if you are a mare giving a warning to get away or she will kick. I tried this the other day with my horses. They were crowding me at the gate, so first I lightly swung the rope while facing them. They backed off a little bit, but not much. Then when I got inside the turn out, I turned around and swung the rope behind me. You would not BELIEVE how fast they took off! They were practically stumbling over their own feet until they were fifteen feet away. This was the sequence of my expressions: See? No chasing or whipping required. Just a pretend mares tail.
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post #35 of 86 Old 04-24-2014, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseluvr2524 View Post
There is a difference between "chasing" as in taking a few quick strides forward and driving them off, and "chasing" as in literally running at them with a whip. I wrote the whole comment entirely out of experience. My mare actually became aggressive towards the lunge whip because of misuse of it. I'm not exactly sure how it got started, as I never ran at her with a lunge whip. She still is aggressive towards it on occasion, but is much better than before.

I have no problem with giving a horse a swat or a slap to the neck. However in this situation the mare was going forward into DD's space, so she needs to be forced to move backward out of DD's space. By slapping her on the neck in this situation, it is teaching her that it is ok to walk ahead of the handler as long as she is not right next to them. The horse should always be at the shoulder, and not in your space bubble. It's the principle "always do the opposite of what the horse wants to do", though whether I follow that principle depends on the situation. In this situation, yes definitely. It is the same idea as when you ask a horse to go right, and he goes left. Do you correct him by forcing him to go right or left then? If you force him to go left, even if he's getting turned in tight circles and getting kicked in the side, he's still won. He got to go the way that he wanted to. But if you force him to go right, you are reinforcing your command to go right, and reaffirming your position as the dominant lead horse.

All the advice I've given comes from my own experience, not theory or something I've read. I have learned first hand what works and does not work.

Something I learned the other day-I read a post on here that if you are in a pasture and you want the horses to get out of your space, take a lead rope and swing it behind your butt as if you are a mare giving a warning to get away or she will kick. I tried this the other day with my horses. They were crowding me at the gate, so first I lightly swung the rope while facing them. They backed off a little bit, but not much. Then when I got inside the turn out, I turned around and swung the rope behind me. You would not BELIEVE how fast they took off! They were practically stumbling over their own feet until they were fifteen feet away. This was the sequence of my expressions: See? No chasing or whipping required. Just a pretend mares tail.

i see .. little bit of miscommunication
we have been working on porcupine game and controlling the different parts of the body --- she is not walking in to DD's space (at least not directly at her), but she is walking across effectively cutting her off (getting forward and veering left)

at that point she has the option to move the horse around her, allow the horse to lead her, or get control of the horses head/neck (effectively cutting the horse off)

first she pushes dixies neck, and dixie is solid so usually just stands there, so DD pops her on the neck and push on her neck again --- at that point Dixie *usually* allows us to push her head and point her back in the general direction we were originally walking

the horse is trying to force us to go left -- so we force it to go right

we will chase them off with a whip during feeding time to keep them out of our space -- they are extremely eager at feeding time

i have been kicked at twice (both food related) -- and i chased that horse with a whip for 20 minutes --- she's not fearful at all -- she is not scared of the whip -- she is not scared of me --- but i would rather chase her with a whip and scare the bejeezus out of her than to take a hoof to the forehead

... i do like the rope-swinging-mock-tail thing --- interesting
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post #36 of 86 Old 04-24-2014, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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Day 8

short short day
we caught both horses this time
DD led Dixie and I led Whiskey
We managed about 5 figure 8's before the gnats overwhelmed us
then we fed them

i think it is a good routine for us -- work first -- feed second
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post #37 of 86 Old 04-24-2014, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmike View Post
Day 8


i think it is a good routine for us -- work first -- feed second
I vastly prefer to work a horse first and feed after. If the horse gets fed first and you interrupt them to work, frequently you get lots of horsey attitude. Work first and dinner becomes a reward for a good session.
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post #38 of 86 Old 04-26-2014, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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things have been insane at the house and at work lately

first the pool pump stopped working, i replaced it and now it is leaking a little, then the breakers that feed power to the pool pump broke, i replaced those and figured out the intermittant timer to start and stop the pump on a schedule, then the handle to the sand filter valve broke, i waiting on parts for that, then the belt on the lawn mower broke -- will probably go buy that and replace that today ... if i have time --- DW found a mini that she wants, so i have to find a trailer to haul it

and i am working today, getting ready for 4 weeks of mass overtime, i will be updating softeware on about 1,000 routers and switches (good times) -- did not get any training in yesterday --- i won't get in any tomorrow ... and might only be able to do saturdays and maybe sundays for the next 5 weeks

then in june i have to go to portland for a week ..... and to top everything off -- i get to move to another building across town


on the plus -- DD hasn't had any meltdowns in a while now and she is doing much much better ---- the other day she wasn't feeling well because of allergies and her and DW started arguing over something and it was about to be a full blown meltdown ... but she stopped, took a deep breath, got control of herself, and apologised -- i was so proud of that when i heard about it

seems the training and time working with each other and the horses is starting to make a difference

she has lessons on friday morning ... and when she finished -- she hopped off the lesson horse and started doing hind-quarter yields ... she was so proud of herself (she was showing off for the trainers daughter -- who was giving her lessons that day)
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post #39 of 86 Old 04-27-2014, 11:36 AM
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It is so hard when life blows up your training and riding plans!

I am thrilled to hear DD is doing so well. Something about horses is really good for a teen I think.

You have a lot to be proud of, jmike!
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post #40 of 86 Old 04-29-2014, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxtail Ranch View Post
It is so hard when life blows up your training and riding plans!

I am thrilled to hear DD is doing so well. Something about horses is really good for a teen I think.

You have a lot to be proud of, jmike!
thanks -- i am proud

just need to get her to stop sabotaging herself --- yesterday was not a good day for her -- had to make her clean her room -- and she got stubborn and mouthy -- and i had been since since Saturday morning

was tempted to lunge her
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