The rise of scams in the world of supplements and accessories - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 12:05 PM
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Fluoride comes from other sources than fluoridated water. Fluoride in the soils whether naturally occurring or from industrial or agricultural residue mean our foods contribute significantly to our intake. Use of fluoride based pesticides is also a big contributor to dietary intake as the residues remain on food we consume. It is not an essential nutrient. BUT it does remineralize the surface of tooth enamel and provide a harder, less reactive surface. So the question is how much is too much and what are all the sources? It replaces calcium - in minute amounts this is good for the tooth surface and can improve bone density. As it is replacing that calcium though it also replaces iodine. Too much and the percent iodine replaced in your thyroid causes thyroid problems. Realize there is much more to this picture as well. Diet and lifestyle also play a big part. As a species there is a range of any substance that is tolerable or good for us. As an individual that range can narrow or widen based or our unique circumstance.

Expanding on Loosie's reply.About 20 years ago a lightbulb went off about how interrelated the things I consulted on actually were despite being seemingly different subjects entirely. Of the things I realized, these are the ones that have had profound effects on me personally and on clients. Most of us are chronically dehydrated. Most of us have nutrient/vitamin/mineral imbalances. Most of us do not understand the basics of nutrient/vitamin/mineral interactions. As science evolves we understand more and more but depending on current research we tend to narrow our focus often to the detriment of our health. We miss the big picture focusing on what's in that one. tiny. spot. Let me also add that while we may have an idea of what the big picture is we can never really grasp the entirety of the big picture for two reasons - the amount of "stuff" it actually encompasses and our ever changing world. While most of us pay lip service to the saying, "You are what you eat," most truly do not understand the entire scope of that statement. It should be "You are what you eat, drink, breathe and absorb through your skin as well as how well and how much you move." Look at the Omegas. We now know we (as well as our animals) need Omega 3. We are also understanding that there needs to be balance. How many of us know we also need Omega 6 (and 9) ? And that the source and form needs are different for different species? What about A, D and E? Throw in C.

We have basic needs. We meet these needs through diet and motion. Tamper with how those needs are met and we run into problems. (And my how we tamper with how those needs are met.) This opens the door for the Snake Oil salesman. Getting back to horses. They need forage and water. Provide a healthy supply of these two things and motion needs are met. BUT because of how we live, where we live, resources (financial and otherwise) and time restrictions we impact their most basic needs and create problems that now need to be solved. DA I promise I am not throwing up the wild card as I truly believe domestication has it's advantages and living the wild life isn't perfect for any but the strongest even in the most ideal environment. Ideally our horses would be spending their idle time in pastures that provide a wide mix of grasses and herbs and water where all of their nutritional needs are met and there are no restrictions on the motion needed to meet those needs. But we live in a time where we have raped the soils, restricted land use, monocropped (or severely limited biodiversity), added herbicides and pesticides, decreased available space, polluted our waters so we do the best we can with what we have and we try to make up the differences. Prime time for the Snake Oil salesman to make an appearance.
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post #62 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 12:42 PM
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Omega 3 - I probably should also clarify that because there is so much added Omega 6 and conversion rates of ALA are low sometimes the quickest route of getting EPA and DHA in the diet is to add a source (fish) not normally consumed. Just understand their needs, how much O6 you need to offset to bring them into balance and how much ALA would be needed to bring them into balance as well as how much of that gets converted. Cost wise it may be easier and simpler to add the EPA and DHA already converted. We have upset the balance not nature.
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post #63 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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Fluoride comes from other sources than fluoridated water. Fluoride in the soils whether naturally occurring or from industrial or agricultural residue mean our foods contribute significantly to our intake. Use of fluoride based pesticides is also a big contributor to dietary intake as the residues remain on food we consume. It is not an essential nutrient. BUT it does remineralize the surface of tooth enamel and provide a harder, less reactive surface. So the question is how much is too much and what are all the sources? It replaces calcium - in minute amounts this is good for the tooth surface and can improve bone density. As it is replacing that calcium though it also replaces iodine. Too much and the percent iodine replaced in your thyroid causes thyroid problems. Realize there is much more to this picture as well. Diet and lifestyle also play a big part. As a species there is a range of any substance that is tolerable or good for us. As an individual that range can narrow or widen based or our unique circumstance.

Expanding on Loosie's reply.About 20 years ago a lightbulb went off about how interrelated the things I consulted on actually were despite being seemingly different subjects entirely. Of the things I realized, these are the ones that have had profound effects on me personally and on clients. Most of us are chronically dehydrated. Most of us have nutrient/vitamin/mineral imbalances. Most of us do not understand the basics of nutrient/vitamin/mineral interactions. As science evolves we understand more and more but depending on current research we tend to narrow our focus often to the detriment of our health. We miss the big picture focusing on what's in that one. tiny. spot. Let me also add that while we may have an idea of what the big picture is we can never really grasp the entirety of the big picture for two reasons - the amount of "stuff" it actually encompasses and our ever changing world. While most of us pay lip service to the saying, "You are what you eat," most truly do not understand the entire scope of that statement. It should be "You are what you eat, drink, breathe and absorb through your skin as well as how well and how much you move." Look at the Omegas. We now know we (as well as our animals) need Omega 3. We are also understanding that there needs to be balance. How many of us know we also need Omega 6 (and 9) ? And that the source and form needs are different for different species? What about A, D and E? Throw in C.

We have basic needs. We meet these needs through diet and motion. Tamper with how those needs are met and we run into problems. (And my how we tamper with how those needs are met.) This opens the door for the Snake Oil salesman. Getting back to horses. They need forage and water. Provide a healthy supply of these two things and motion needs are met. BUT because of how we live, where we live, resources (financial and otherwise) and time restrictions we impact their most basic needs and create problems that now need to be solved. DA I promise I am not throwing up the wild card as I truly believe domestication has it's advantages and living the wild life isn't perfect for any but the strongest even in the most ideal environment. Ideally our horses would be spending their idle time in pastures that provide a wide mix of grasses and herbs and water where all of their nutritional needs are met and there are no restrictions on the motion needed to meet those needs. But we live in a time where we have raped the soils, restricted land use, monocropped (or severely limited biodiversity), added herbicides and pesticides, decreased available space, polluted our waters so we do the best we can with what we have and we try to make up the differences. Prime time for the Snake Oil salesman to make an appearance.

Perfectly said. Seriously. It's obvious that we have messed with our horses' diets and lifestyles by domesticating them (but then again, wild horses have GOT to have deficiencies too!). So we try to replace what has been lost. But buying the first supplement that has a label containing what you're looking for is often dangerous. Because vitamins have variable levels of absorption, so you might just be pooping your money away if it isn't getting absorbed. Then there are all the other elements that must be present for the target vitamin/mineral to do its thing. All the interactions with other elements (iron is a problem here) that cause them to be less effective.

In the end, the best thing we can possibly do in my very humble opinion, is start with lots of forage, have it analyzed, and build from there with the help of an equine nutritionist (one that does not work for a feed company) in the hopes that we might get at least some of it right.
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post #64 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 07:41 PM
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Maybe more people should try this latest one.. The Chronicle of the Horse

“Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity”
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post #65 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 10:47 PM
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Well, Dr Lori Warren has done quite a bit of work on the omegas, related to horses. She is an equine nutritionist. I have heard her speak quite a few times.

Know what drives equine nutritionists nuts? When they ask a horse person who is consulting them, what is in their horse's diet, and that person lists off a bunch of supplements
That is not their diet-which starts first and foremost with forage. Supplements is what you add, once you know what is missing in the forage, based on age of horse, work load, special needs, ect
A horse on pasture, gets his needs met, far as the omegas and Vit e and a
Hay looses then quite quickly.
There are only three fat sources now recommended for horses, based on their omega 3 to 6 ratio. They are canola oil, fish oil and flax
Sunseeds , like BOSS , are almost 100% omega 6.

I do supplement vit e, but not a, as horses who have part of the year on pasture, are not vit a deficient , and there is a greater risk of damage, over supplementing vit a
Lets also throw the wild horse model out the window. Wild horses are also not de wormed nor vaccinated. We don't know how many surrcome because of this,plus winter 'kill off' of old horses was just part of that life cycle. Nobody there to make sure they had special feed,to keep weight on kept warm.

There is also no documentation as to how many wild horses die of tetanus
Oh boy, are we off topic again, because once again,the topic was scams, not supplements, although many horses are over supplemented, which can do just as much harm in many cases, as some shortage.
Wild/feral horses also breed by the laws of natural selection, with that selection based on survival, not on some performance, color or other man like goals
Many of the special diets or supplements we have to give a horse,is due to not letting them be selected by the laws of nature. A hYpp horse would be culled
The Urban myth that horses in the wild seek out various plants to meet their mineral requirements , and thus would not eat a plant that is not good for them,is flawed.
Horses will get addicted to Loco weed, seek it out, even with enough grass around.
Just one example-there are a lot of others
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post #66 of 91 Old 02-06-2018, 11:01 PM
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Maybe more people should try this latest one.. The Chronicle of the Horse
Good one!
I don;t know how many people try to treat ulcers, stable vises, like cribbing, when much of those problems can be prevented, simply by letting a horse be ahrose, much as possible

Of course, some of the things we do with hroses, requires that they accept stalling part time, travel, ect
In the words of Dr Sid Gustavson, who specializes in equine behavior , ;horses have a great ability to adapt, but we must be sure never to exceed their ability to do so
I have enjoyed hearing him speak a few times
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post #67 of 91 Old 02-07-2018, 11:03 AM
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But I am not talking about urban myths. And I was not basing my reply on horses in the wild. Horses evolved and adapted to parasite loads, not all adapted or survived if the load became too great to bear. We put our animals in situations that exacerbate the situation and favor the parasite which means we now have to do something about it. Turn them out, practice good management and you lessen the load to what the horse can manage without detriment or impacting overall health. Do you still need to worm, in some cases yes but in others no. In nature each plant pulls what is available in the soils and the air into its structure. The type of plant, root (depth and spread) and nutrient availability determine what is in those plants be they grasses or herbs. The horse (or any other grazer) comes along and eats what is palatable when there is abundant choice. Their(the horse) nutrient profile matches their diet based on what selections they make. If a deficiency is so great or any nutrient available in levels that cause toxicity the herd suffers and either adapts, dies out or moves on. Narrow the available selection and they make alternate choices some neither good nor bad, others are detrimental to their well being. Even with adequate grass and good herbs some horses choose what is not good for them. The horse that eats locoweed loses out in the grand scheme of things as they are impaired and exhibit a lack of coordination, abnormal behavior and impaired sensory perception. They effectively cull themselves. We say the same over and over when users ask about removing toxic trees or plants. You do what you can and realize that the better you feed your animal and the more quality forage (pasture or dried) you make available then the less likely your horse will seek out alternate foods or eat whatever happens to be available. Where trees are concerned - forests go through stages which make some trees more abundant than others and if you are in a heavily wooded location then it may not be feasible to remove every single tree that is a danger. Better to feed your horse well before allowing them to forage. As for plants in pastures that cause harm - remove them but also understand that changing the nutrient profile, ph, soil structure and grazing schedule can also remove those plants and keep them from returning. I can use my own pasture as an example. When I moved here I spread lime and used a disc to work it in and kill off a good percent of what was there. I seeded bermuda and a clover/herb mix. I was careful how it was grazed and continued to lime and spread manure. Horses were sleek and healthy. All had good bloom and we didn't have the need to feed concentrates or add supplements. My husband had other ideas about the best way to manage pasture. His family property, their equipment and I got tired of fighting. Over time he totally destroyed what was there and allowed the PH to become so acidic we went from bermuda/clover/herb mix to bahaia and trash weeds (some poisonous) with cogon invading. As the ph continued to drop more noxious species turned up and centipede took over. Do my horses still graze those pastures - well, yes it is what I have available. Do I do all I can to remove poisonous weeds and feed my animals so they don't decide they need to eat things that aren't good for them or at least will do no harm. Yes. Has my husband finally decided that he has no clue about pasture management - for the most part. Is he ready to do as I ask to return things to ideal - no. He needs to hear it from a man and not just any man but someone that graduated from HIS college of choice. Talk about pigheaded and sexist. He also blames me for the "failure" of the pasture because he has decided that bermuda can't be grown here (due to his poor management) - can't argue that we only buy bermuda hay and it is all grown locally - some practically in our back yard because we all know bahaia is native here (yeah, right). He has never grasped the difference between native and naturalized. And boy are we way off topic.

Sorry for the thread jack. Really, though, IMO supplementation can start one down that path to snake oilism and there are some more prone to be believers just because someone with a gift for sales sold them on said snake oil. Some are desperate and will turn to anything that offers hope. Can a supplement be a snake oil - in my mind that's where they start. Someone gives a supplement much more credit than it deserves and promotes it to be the end all be all and cure for all that ails you (your horse) without the vaguest idea of what it may truly be good for and in their own best interest dilute it to nothngness in order to increase their profits and before you realize that it isn't what it is cracked up to be they are back with a new and improved version or something totally different.

@Golden Horse - Loved the link and so true.

Last edited by QtrBel; 02-07-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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post #68 of 91 Old 02-07-2018, 04:37 PM
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Sure, you have to be a Stewart of the land and it is also true that the greater the area horses have to roam over, the less chance of parasite contamination.
It is also a no brainer that most horses leave toxic plants alone, in the presence of lots of forage , but this is not always so. Sometimes horses just taste stuff out of curiosity, such as horse being led, grabbing some oleander
We are fortunate not to have too many trees native to Alberta that are toxic
Feral horses are never studied to the degree to find out as to how many die of tetanus, encephalitis , or other disease that we inoculate against, versus by predation Yes, supplements are often over marketed and used, same as many other modalities, like chiro, massage , ect
Does not make them all bad The point is be be informed, and only add what is needed, versus blindly throwing some Dr Good at your horse, because it worked wonders on someone else's horse. Same goes for bagged horse feed, for that matter.
Far as anecdotal evidence of efficacy and supplements, you can apply that tot he entire huge alternative medicine field, and products That is where the real snake oils lies!
I can go to a horse trade expo, and every year there is some latest treatment, supplement, magical cure
Nutraceuticials are not regulated
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post #69 of 91 Old 02-07-2018, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Hahahaha... vent away @QtrBel . My own husband stopped trying to mess with my pastures the day he came home with "pasture mix" and I told him hun, that's cow pasture mix. And no, it's not the same. Bring that $$$t back and exchange it for some proper horse pasture mix.

Lucky for me, he's still happy to have an excuse to fire up the tractor, so I direct, and he discs, tills, seeds (minimally - we have a lot of good naturalized grasses like timothy here, and it self-seeds year after year so I don't interfere too much), and limes when I say so. I don't pretend to be an expert, but my approach is minimalistic. My two small easy-keepers have a total of 5 acres of abundant grazing (I rotate so they don't get all of it at once of course), and access to trees and shrubs which they sometimes will nibble on even though there's lots of grass. I supplement year-round, but supplement different things - and less in the summer than in the winter.

Again though, I wasn't meaning to suggest that vitamins and minerals aren't necessary, just that the overprocessed, oversold, and overpromoted "magic" formulas seem to be more and more prevalent as more first-time horse owners of a "certain age" (ahem, me) with a deep pocket (ahhhhh, not so much now) emerge within the horse industry.
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post #70 of 91 Old 02-07-2018, 05:14 PM
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Oh man Dr. Good that brings back Cher. I think we are all on the same page we just go about wording it differently.
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