Using a rear cinch for trail riding?? - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 03:14 AM
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From the Back country horsemans Guide, PDF format, so no link

Double-rigged saddles have some advantages on mountain trails. They should be rigged so the cinch is a
little farther back to prevent sores behind the front leg, the strap between the cinches should be adjusted
and the back cinch in contact with the horse's stomach to prevent sideways movement and to help keep
the pads in place. Some people prefer a saddle with a high cantle for mountain use. However, the higher
cantle shouldn't be used to brace against when riding uphill, keep your weight forward and help your
horse
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post #42 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
" But I like the live horse demonstration part after that."

Why? What was realistic about it?

I liked it because moving a horse in that way is something I do when looking at the fit of a saddle. And one of the main things I specifically look at is the amount of flopping the rear of the saddle does.

I guess that is what was realistic about it to me. Because that is what I really do.
...
I can't get the pictures to show on HF, but here is a link to how one can test a saddle. Please notice that while the riders ARE using a rear cinch, there is virtually no pressure on the rear of the saddle:

Position - Why it is so important

Here is a picture captured form that page:




The above pressure scan is a 'bad scan' according to the mnsu study, none of the Nikkel article scans would be close to good on their study.




Harmful pressure is indicated by the red in the scan on the left from an FSA mat. The scan on the right shows a well-fitted saddle with fairly even weight distribution and no pressure points. Image courtesty NMSU's National Agri-Marketing Club.



Based on the video, all we 'know' is that if you put an empty saddle tree on a horse and secure it at one edge, the other edge wiggles as the back moves - hardly surprising, but also completely irrelevant to how a saddle works under a rider's weight, with all the rest of the leather that makes up a saddle AND a rider.

In my opinion how much the back edge flops on my saddled and moving but riderless horse is an indication of how much it will flop under my weight when both the horse and I are moving. I try to move with my horse, if the saddle is being thrown up and down between us, it creates a sort of double bump (if you will).

This is so unscientific; however, if the horse goes up, which throws the saddle up higher, then what happens to me? Either I follow the saddle or get smacked in the rear. Haha. And downwards slams down harder on the horse than I alone would without the saddle. No evidence, just picked up from the school of hard knocks. ...


This is a study looking at saddle pressure. It seems to show most saddles put more weight on the front and riding style can strongly impact where the pressure comes. Since it involved barrel racing and roping, I'd assume most used a rear cinch:

http://aces.nmsu.edu/academics/aeab/...2010-final.pdf

Just want to note here that until the end of the text no saddle brands were named, only that a variety was used. Then suddenly Specialty Saddles could fix ALL the problems.

And surprise. When reading the references for the study all except one were from Veterinary publications. The exception was Specialty Saddles.

Same study with some analysis:

Western Saddle Fit Problems Revealed in Recent Study

It would be interesting to know how many of the problems in that study could have been solved by saddle position. The Nickels' results are well worth a read.

I do like the Nikkel website and have learned useful things from them, as you have referred to them before. I do want to note that the 1st of the 2 horses they used (a grey) did not have a rear cinch, and had less weight at the rear of the scans.

This 2nd horse (the chestnut in your post) does have a back cinch, but additionally it was pointed out the saddle is a terrible fit in addition to being positioned too far forward.

On a personal and unproven note I tend to see more roping saddles used with rear cinches than not. And more barrel saddles used without one, than with. At least I think that is what I have observed.

It's late, good night.

Fondly,
Ann


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post #43 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 04:34 AM
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I only used a rear cinch when in the mountains along with a breast collar. i carried saddle bags, and we would go up and down some steep trails. I would also use the back cinch on a horse that had a tendency to buck on occasions.
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post #44 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:01 PM
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The Nikkel scans apparently used a saddle with no cut-outs for the stirrup straps. IIRC, they were called "Arizona bars". They save money in manufacturing, but the horse paid the price. The Nikkels will not make a saddle tree like that.

Seeing how much the rear moves when empty may be a decent 'poor boy's' method of checking for too much rock. If the saddle IS like a rocking chair on a floor, then the rear end will move more than one with better fit. But all will move some - unless they bridge. I was looking at trees on Mia's back and found one that was very stable. Then I looked closer, and I could slide my fingers under parts of the bar in the middle of the tree. It was very stable, and would have been very painful as well.

I honestly have a tough time figuring saddle fit on a finished saddle. I've tried sliding my hand under both with the horse stationary and with the horse moving, tried stretching legs, etc...but I'm pee-poor at checking fit past the first 6 inches of the front edge of a finished saddle. I've been wrestling with it on Bandit. He's slender, with a very straight back and a lot of shoulder. After a few months, it looks like I need to set the saddle further back than I do with my other horses, but the good news is that the saddle stays in place regardless of where I put it. Unlike Mia, Bandit IS a stoic horse, so I don't have a lot of feedback about something being "Owwy". He just deals with it.

I'm going to see if it is possible to rent a pressure pad, or hire someone to come out and do a check with one. I'd love to see what is really happening with different saddles and riding styles. I'd also love to compare a good English & good western saddle with the same horse & rider. I used to think there would be a big difference, but now I'm not so sure. I'd also love to see how my Australian saddle would rate.

I also find the comments some folks have made on this thread about breast collars pretty interesting. I like their looks and people I respect say good things about them. It might be interesting to try. Yes, tack fascinates me.

I've got a couple of good back cinches, so I might pull one out of the closet and try it again. I did a couple of rides on Mia & Bandit with them - neither horse seemed to give a rat's patooty about it and I don't recall much difference...but I might try it again. There is a dirt road about 2 miles from here with some sharp drops - not long, but steep enough to get an idea. I'm dogmatic by nature, but old enough to know uncertainty has a wisdom of its own...
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post #45 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:22 PM
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Smilie, I get the idea that your concept of trail riding and quite a few other people's concept of trail riding are not the same. You're talking long rides and steep and/or rocky terrain. A lot of us, when the OP says "light trail riding" and "flat trail riding" are picturing gentle hills, if any, and rides under three or four hours. If the OP were talking about your kind of trail rides, then yes, a rear cinch would be a good idea, maybe even a necessity. However, if the OP is talking about light trail riding, then a rear cinch is not a necessity, but still maybe a good idea.

As for trail riding in an English saddle, I don't recall anyone saying anything about trail riding in an English saddle (maybe I missed it). I have trail ridden in an Australian stock saddle (was my go-to trail saddle until I realized it didn't fit my horse) and am looking at buying another in the near future. I do know a few people who trail ride English, but again, we're talking relatively light trails and relatively short rides.
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post #46 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:36 PM
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bsms, I hear you, agree with you, and have much of the same problems and uncertainy with saddle fitting as you.

I want to ride in my Sharon Saare so badly that I have ordered, cheap, a used Roma wither riser pad to shove under it. Hoping to slightly change the front (it is too wide as well as a bit too square-ish). Some knowledgeable HF members have said one could possibly put wedges in on a too wide saddle.

I saw that you did that with your Clinton Anderson model. How did that work out for you?

I have said previously that I would not get another horse that did not fit that saddle. Then along came Chief.

I recall from a book I have by Dustin Johnson of Pleasant Valley Saddle Shop that Arizona bars were designed with trimmed and shaped bars to help maneuverability of the horse, but sacrificed strength so should not be used on roping saddles, or for roping
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Last edited by anndankev; 08-20-2015 at 12:42 PM.
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post #47 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Far as English saddles, sorry, they are not trail saddles, and I don't know of anymore that would think of using one to ride into the back country, anyone than riding there with sneakers...

...The back cinch does not put more weight on the loins, BSMS. It stabilizes that saddle, so it does not move back and forth, however slight, across those loins

Come ride some BigHorn sheep hunting trails with us, where it can take two hours of steady climbing to reach above the treelines, and then tell me how good that missing back cinch works for you.We are not talking of sliding down some short incline...BSMS, until you ride where I ride, all you are talking is some preconceived ideas, on something you really don't do, nor have done...
First, lots of folks use English saddles for trail riding. Some have never ridden a trail on anything else. I've ridden trails in my Australian saddle, which are English at their roots. They work fine.

Where you ride and where I ride are completely different. There is no water here for horses. I refuse to take water along with me so I can feel something of what they feel, and won't press them too long when they have nothing to drink.

The idea that we all need to ride 50 miles in the northern Rockies before commenting about easy trail riding is insulting. I don't run marathons. I jog. So how I jog and how I train to jog is very different from someone trying to train for a marathon. My jogging shoes are very different from the shoes used by competitive runners. That doesn't mean I have to stay silent when asked about shoes for jogging. I've jogged plenty of miles, and I've ridden light trails enough to form an informed opinion on that subject - which is, after all, the subject of this thread.

I've also spent a lot more time working saddle fit than many experienced riders. I've used bare trees and forms and swapped hundreds of pictures with people who are genuine experts. Lots of rider have gone their entire lives without ever putting a bare tree on a horse's back. Lots of western riders have never swapped western and English tack during the same ride on the same horse just to see how the horse responds.

In short, Smilie, I have a right to post on this thread. I do not need to ride where you ride any more than you need to ride where I ride before forming an opinion. If the subject was 'packing horses 50 miles into the mountains', I'd skip the thread. But that isn't the subject of THIS thread. So I posted on THIS thread. If you have a reason for disagreeing with what I wrote, feel free to explain WHY you disagree. But on a thread about riding pleasure trails, you have no special expertise. Folks are allowed to disagree with you.

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post #48 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
First, lots of folks use English saddles for trail riding. Some have never ridden a trail on anything else. I've ridden trails in my Australian saddle, which are English at their roots. They work fine.

Where you ride and where I ride are completely different. There is no water here for horses. I refuse to take water along with me so I can feel something of what they feel, and won't press them too long when they have nothing to drink.

The idea that we all need to ride 50 miles in the northern Rockies before commenting about easy trail riding is insulting. I don't run marathons. I jog. So how I jog and how I train to jog is very different from someone trying to train for a marathon. My jogging shoes are very different from the shoes used by competitive runners. That doesn't mean I have to stay silent when asked about shoes for jogging. I've jogged plenty of miles, and I've ridden light trails enough to form an informed opinion on that subject - which is, after all, the subject of this thread.

I've also spent a lot more time working saddle fit than many experienced riders. I've used bare trees and forms and swapped hundreds of pictures with people who are genuine experts. Lots of rider have gone their entire lives without ever putting a bare tree on a horse's back. Lots of western riders have never swapped western and English tack during the same ride on the same horse just to see how the horse responds.

In short, Smilie, I have a right to post on this thread. I do not need to ride where you ride any more than you need to ride where I ride before forming an opinion. If the subject was 'packing horses 50 miles into the mountains', I'd skip the thread. But that isn't the subject of THIS thread. So I posted on THIS thread. If you have a reason for disagreeing with what I wrote, feel free to explain WHY you disagree. But on a thread about riding pleasure trails, you have no special expertise. Folks are allowed to disagree with you.
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post #49 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anndankev View Post
bsms, I hear you, agree with you, and have much of the same problems and uncertainy with saddle fitting as you...Some knowledgeable HF members have said one could possibly put wedges in on a too wide saddle.

I saw that you did that with your Clinton Anderson model. How did that work out for you?

I have said previously that I would not get another horse that did not fit that saddle. Then along came Chief....
It didn't work for me. The problem was the saddle was just too wide. I used a closed cell foam wedge as a stop gap until the saddle I ordered for her came, and it was OK. Frankly, she seemed to LIKE riding in the too wide CA model. It just sucked when she spooked hard!

I never expected to sell or trade Mia. Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing. Bandit has made me a better rider, and he is a better match for me...but I still miss Mia. And Bandit is an odd horse for fit. A year from now, if we're still together and things are going well, I might try having a saddle made for him. He's 7, so lots of years left in him (hopefully). But it is tough. Why couldn't I have ended up with a standard Full QH Bars kind of horse so I could just pull the CA saddle out of the closet and be done?
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post #50 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DWRVT View Post
I will have to do more reading or have someone help me with fitting his breast collar as right now, we are not using it because of where it sits across his shoulders.
OP...you might consider a pulling collar in place of a standard breast collar. Fits differently and frees up the shoulders.
One more piece of equipment to research. : )
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