Using a rear cinch for trail riding?? - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 10:25 PM
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For light trail riding, you do not need a rear cinch. You do not need a western saddle. You do not need lots of things that might be useful for someone on a ranch or heading off for a week. Light trail riding is, well, light. For some of us, it is just 1-3 hours of having fun with a horse. "Trail riding" can be a simple as riding a horse someplace that is not confined by walls. I try to do it 5 days a week. I'd feel like a poseur if I put a bunch of stuff on my horse when all I'm going to do is ride around in the local area and enjoy the desert and fresh air.

I may even 'go English' again, if Bandit keeps acting as nicely as he is right now...although my wife might kill me if I buy another saddle. But she bought furniture we don't need yesterday, and after 28 years of marriage...I kept my mouth shut.

Then went and looked at English saddles on Dover...

Riders ask "How?" Horsemen ask "Why?"
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post #62 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 10:33 PM
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[QUOTE=Smilie;7893514AND THIS IS NOT AN ENGLISH VERSUS WESTERN DEBATE
[/QUOTE]

Adding on to my previous reply, this board is a discussion board, not a debate board.
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post #63 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 11:13 PM
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Everyone needs to chill out, things aren’t really so complicated, but surprisingly no one got quite complicated enough to take into consideration rigging positions.
Firstly understand how a saddle works. The Nichols set it out really good on their website, (my paraphrasing of it roughly) the tree should give maximum weight distribution while providing optimal freedom of movement of the horse’s back while ensuring no pointy bits/pressure points digging into anything. If your tree fulfils those parameters you are on the right track.

Next, different rigging positions will influence how the saddle fulfils the above function in subtle ways. Western saddles are typically rigged in one of (sometimes in a couple of) the following configurations:

Full rigging/double rigging/full double rigging. Front cinch is rigged into the saddle under the fork/horn (can depend on a few variables), rear cinch is under the cantle horns (where the cantle meets the bars).

7/8ths. Front cinch is 7/8ths the distance along between the full position and the rear cinch.

¾. Front cinch is three quarters the distance between the full position and the rear cinch.

Centrefire. Front (typically the only) cinch is in the centre between the full position and the rear cinch (again, centrefire saddle typically have no rear cinch).

And I recently read about 5/8th rigging which is 5/8th the way to the front between the full position and the rear cinch.

As far as I can tell most western saddles that I have seen have full double rigging, however in some areas ¾ and 7/8ths are popular too. As a rule of thumb the following is probably a good way to work. Full rigging should always be used with a back cinch, 7/8ths probably wouldn’t hurt to have one, ¾ and centrefire probably don’t need one even if you are roping (centrefire is also called Californian rigging, and those old Californios did plenty of roping in centrefire rigged saddles).

The differences come into play in the way the cinch pulls on the bar of the saddle. A way to understand it would be to put a ruler on a table and with your left index finger push on 1cm then with the other hand at the 30cm mark lift up that end of the ruler. It will be pretty easy to lift it up. Then put your left index finger on 5cm then lift up the other end, it’s a little harder, then put your left finger on the 10cm mark, lift the other end is harder again, then do the same with your left finger on the 15cm mark, you probably can’t lift the back end of the ruler. That will roughly approximate the way different rigging positions “pull down” the bars of a saddle.

It is really common to see a lot of full double rigged saddles, without the rear cinch on, kicking up at the back when there’s no one sitting in them, it isn’t necessarily because the tree doesn’t fit, but probably because the front cinch is too tight. However if you rode in it with the front too tight it will pull unduly on the front of the horse, simply by virtue of the rigging position, and could cause problems hence why, in a full double rigged saddle you should always ride with a back cinch, that rigging position is designed really to be ridden with both front and back. If however the front cinch isn’t too tight, and the country you are riding isn’t anything extreme then it’s probably no big deal.

7/8 and ¾ rigging are compromises of varying degree between centrefire and full rigging, and centrefire is the other extreme to full rigging. I personally feel more comfortable with a rear cinch even back to the ¾ position which I had built into my Wade as I rope out of it (and I’m not the most skilled guy with a rope). I figure it’s better to have the rear cinch and not need it than need it and not have it. My half breed saddle (cross between an Australian saddle and a western saddle) has ¾ rigging and no rear cinch, it doesn’t have a horn so I don’t rope in it. Neither my wade nor my half breed saddle so much as move, even with the girth loose; that is to say the flank girth on my wade is not about stability for the saddle to fit, but more about compensating for my mediocre roping skills. Were my wade, or my half breed saddle full double rigged, I would never ride in them without a rear cinch.
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post #64 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 11:17 PM
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From the (international) Long Riders Guild website, some saddles people have used to cross continents on . . .

The first two are French makes. The little pic of the black western-looking one is a Steele. Also mentioned Australian saddles and Tucker saddles. The Steele is clearly equipped with a back cinch, the set of three I am not sure. The Michaud, with the mohair cinch, isn't that what they call a center-fire rig? Which a lot of endurance riders use. Looks pretty stable to me!

Just as another point of reference.
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Last edited by Avna; 08-20-2015 at 11:22 PM.
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post #65 of 79 Old 08-20-2015, 11:47 PM
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Thank you Andrew!!! Winner, winner, chicken dinner ;)
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post #66 of 79 Old 08-21-2015, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avna View Post
The Michaud, with the mohair cinch, isn't that what they call a center-fire rig? Which a lot of endurance riders use. Looks pretty stable to me!
That's a centre fire "type" rigging, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's in the middle of a full rigging. Looks close to my older Crates endurance saddle which I call between 5/8 and 3/4 rigging. The cinch is attached down low on a long skirt in about the same position as the Michaud.

That makes a large surface for holding the saddle in place. Plus I use a SupraCor pad which is supposed to be sorta anti-slip. The 3/4 to center fire rigging is said to prevent rocking of the saddle. Who said and from where is lost in the ether. Mine does not rock but that could be the horses back and the fit.

I personally think the single cinch placed back aways from the full rig position is the way to go for trail riding. I also use the widest mohair roping cinch available.
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post #67 of 79 Old 08-21-2015, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
... Why couldn't I have ended up with a standard Full QH Bars kind of horse so I could just pull the CA saddle out of the closet and be done?
This is why in my opinion many horsemen have several saddles. They are a little different in many ways. Such as: to fit a range of horse body types, and style (purpose).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
... Far as abreast collar-do not use one without a back cinch! Going down steep hills it will suck your saddle forward, soring your horse. ...
Good tip, I'll remember it, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilie View Post
Far as saddle fit, a poor fitting saddle is never really compensated for by a pad or wedges, etc

Yes, that is my thinking also. But it is driving me crazy, so I'll hope for the best and expect the worse. LOL

I never had a custom fitted saddle for several reasons

Me either, the line of Sharon Saare saddles had 7 tree sizes, not the typical Semi, Reg or Full Quarter horse bars. This one, an 'F' tree fit all 3 of my sisters mares at the time. It did not fit Elwood and doesn't look good for Chief either. It fit Dewey ok when he was younger, but I don't think it will now.

Quote:
a- I ride many different horses, ... neither do those that make a living training horses, use a custom fit saddle
...
A well made saddle, that fits the general body type of the horses you ride, works great on many horses with that general conformation ...
...
I thus bought a saddle just for her ...
The above clips are more reasons why I feel a lot of horsemen and women end up with a variety of saddles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
... he had a saddle for his horse in the spring when he was fat from the winter and one for later in the season when he slimmed up a bit.

He's one that is out there and does it.
Hahah, I wear different size jeans and belts in winter and summer, too.
I blame it on 3 pairs of long johns and layering clothing though. LOL




Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
... Dunno...but it has been done. ...





Love the photos you come up with.

Quote:
... But as I recall, they don't have a saddle for each horse, nor are they color coded - "I'm taking Buster, he's a red, gotta grab me a red saddle so it will fit him!". They pretty much use their saddle on whatever horse they grab. I'm certain they have never had custom saddles made for their horses! ...
I imagine they may have a greater number of saddles than they do riders.

Quote:
... There is a reason the saddle stayed on when Trooper was cantering with the cinch bouncing against his front legs - the saddle fit on a horse whose body shape makes it easy for a saddle to stay on! ... Not all horses come in a saddle-friendly shape. ... your needs might differ.
Coming back to having several saddles, to suit your differing needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailhorserider View Post
I use a rear cinch and a breast collar.
...all I do is trail ride, and I really appreciate a breast collar, and to a lesser extent, the back cinch. I actually would feel unsafe without a breast collar, but I know a lot of people do fine without one.
THR - he is looking so-o-o-o-o-o-o good. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnrewPL View Post
Everyone needs to chill out, things aren’t really so complicated, but surprisingly no one got quite complicated enough to take into consideration rigging positions. ...
Great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avna View Post
...The Steele is clearly equipped with a back cinch, the set of three I am not sure. The Michaud, with the mohair cinch, isn't that what they call a center-fire rig? Which a lot of endurance riders use. Looks pretty stable to me!

Just as another point of reference.
All of these saddles are equipped with a back ring in order to hang (suspend) your cinch in any position you want. By way of a single extra long tie strap that threads through all three rings, forming a Y or Triangle.

Even the Michaud. However it is a little different as the Y is separate strap. I think the O-ring that is suspended from it can be moved to any position. It is the ring that the cinch is tied onto.

I could be wrong about everything. Geesh, should I hit the post button or not?

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post #68 of 79 Old 08-21-2015, 10:33 AM
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Hi All!

I am always amazed at the heated arguments that develop when various equestrians compare techniques.

OP, and anyone else who cares, the real answer to your question, and to many other horse-related ones as well, is "maybe". And I would suggest that the person you should be asking is your horse.

All to often, a horse is "saddled" with the responsibility of carrying a human who is too heavy, too awkward, too self-centered/goal-oriented . . . the list grows long. Add poorly fitting tack to the equation, and we are back to the slavery issue.

It is _your_ responsibility to provide your animal with tack that fits and is comfortable. For Him. Doesn't matter what it looks like, so long as it does it's job in the context you intend to use it, especially that crucial piece that lies between his back and your butt.

On behalf of horses everywhere, please, Please take the time to insure that the tack you are using is working for your horse. If you don't know how to ask, perhaps you need to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

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post #69 of 79 Old 08-21-2015, 11:41 AM
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Don't even know why this became a discussion of types of saddles, as the simple question was, does the back cinch have a purpose, trail riding. THat was it, and yes it does. It is not just for roping.
One the also assumes the question was asked by someone actually using a saddle that accommodates a back cinch
Right from the beginning, I said that it is not needed on all rides, buT I just happen to leave mine on my working saddles
I am quite aware of people doing cross country and endurance riding, so never said you can't ride in anything but a stock saddle in rough country, but IF you do ue a stock saddle, makes sense to use a back cinch
The OP just asked for a simple answer, using a stock saddle with a back cinch, as to whether it had a purpose.
It does same as a helmet, although I ride without one most times , and it certainly can be done, but still, if someone were to ask me, if a helmet had a purpose, I would concede that it does, versus referring to all kinds of pictures where people even jumped major fences without one, etc
If you can't see the analogy< I'm sorry, but I'm done arguing tangents , which have nothing to do with the original question, nor even support any view I have.
I also have read books like Tshiffliys Ride, charge of the Light brigade, have friends that both endurance ride, do competitive rides and cross country, and realize an English saddle is suited to those events.
However, I don't think the OP is asking whether she needs to install a back cinch on her English saddle, or even whether she can ride out with one-just about the purpose of a back cinch, on a saddle that accommodates one, for trail riding
One can then make a choice to use one or not, based on where you ride with that saddle, same as I decide if I am going to use a helmet, which I try to remember to do, when riding a green horse out

My original disagreement arose from the rely that a back cinch is only needed for roping or barrel racing-which is incorrect on both counts, as a back cinch is not used on a barrel racing saddle, and it does have a purpose in trail riding, for those that chose to use it, done up correctly, versus being superfluous
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post #70 of 79 Old 08-21-2015, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george the mule View Post
It is _your_ responsibility to provide your animal with tack that fits and is comfortable. For Him. Doesn't matter what it looks like, so long as it does it's job in the context you intend to use it, especially that crucial piece that lies between his back and your butt.

On behalf of horses everywhere, please, Please take the time to insure that the tack you are using is working for your horse. If you don't know how to ask, perhaps you need to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.
I agree 100%. This is why I sold my Aussie saddle that I absolutely adored...because it didn't fit my horse. This is why I refuse to ride in my barrel saddle...because the tree (cheap fiberglass meant to imitate Ralide, apparently) is going mushy and I don't want to chance it breaking on me. This is why I have bought and sold or traded five saddles in the last two years...because they didn't work for my horse (that's a lot of saddles when you're on an extremely tight budget). And this is why I have probably half a dozen bits, sidepulls and mechanical hacks in my possession, even though I only have one, VERY green horse...because I have been desperately trying to figure out what works best for him.
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