Why horses are NOT dogs - Page 6 - The Horse Forum
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post #51 of 60 Old 06-10-2016, 11:43 PM
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@Avna -- Never once in my post did I say to 'treat an animal like a child.' Please read the words I have posted, rather than what you assume them to mean.

Too, I'm not really sure why people care how others referring to their pet? Or child, or spouse, or friend, or...etcetcetc.
It's really not anyone else's business.
No, you said, to love an animal like a child. I read it. But for many those are synonymous. Clearly, not you.

Words matter though. They not only matter, they draw ideas and then events and things into being that weren't there before. Not for nothing that the original meaning of "grammar" was "word magic, or spellcraft".

No, it doesn't matter one whit if someone calls their cat their fur baby. How animals are referred to starts mattering when it starts changing the cultural understanding of what animals mean. And that is happening right now.

An example: there is a serious political movement to eliminate the legal ownership of animals. Those who care for them would be legally termed, "guardians", not owners. The belief behind the movement is that animals have the same standing as humans. Hence, ownership of animals is equivalent to human slavery.

However, this is probably too much of a thread hijack, so I won't go further with it.

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post #52 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Avna View Post
No, you said, to love an animal like a child. I read it. But for many those are synonymous. Clearly, not you.

Words matter though. They not only matter, they draw ideas and then events and things into being that weren't there before. Not for nothing that the original meaning of "grammar" was "word magic, or spellcraft".

No, it doesn't matter one whit if someone calls their cat their fur baby. How animals are referred to starts mattering when it starts changing the cultural understanding of what animals mean. And that is happening right now.

An example: there is a serious political movement to eliminate the legal ownership of animals. Those who care for them would be legally termed, "guardians", not owners. The belief behind the movement is that animals have the same standing as humans. Hence, ownership of animals is equivalent to human slavery.

However, this is probably too much of a thread hijack, so I won't go further with it.
Maybe a thread hijack but I haven't heard of that.

While I definitely feel they should have rights equivalent to a human as opposed to property (someone shoots beloved family pet and family gets $50 for value of dog..please, or animal abuse, some places crack down, some don't). It would be such a MESS to have them literally at the same standing as humans. Someone has to be in charge.

Is it so hard to classify something as a living thing akin but not the same as a human vs an object? Apparently.
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post #53 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 12:59 AM
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Maybe a thread hijack but I haven't heard of that.

While I definitely feel they should have rights equivalent to a human as opposed to property (someone shoots beloved family pet and family gets $50 for value of dog..please, or animal abuse, some places crack down, some don't). It would be such a MESS to have them literally at the same standing as humans. Someone has to be in charge.

Is it so hard to classify something as a living thing akin but not the same as a human vs an object? Apparently.
Well, since we don't exactly have a great record of treating human beings well . . .

Yes it is very much a movement. PETA, HSUS, what are called Animal Rights groups, are very much a movement. It's sort of a religious crusade. Their professed agenda sounds so noble, but their less-public one is really extreme and frankly scary.

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post #54 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 02:35 AM
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I absolutely would kick any dog that threatened a small child.
Sure, I would discipline a dog that threatened a child (or adult, FTM), and do whatever was necessary to stop the threatening behavior. I would likewise take appropriate action towards anyone - child or adult - that threatened my dog or horse.

I hate to tell you this, but in my scale of values my friends come way ahead of random humans. That holds true regardless of whether those friends go on two legs or four.
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post #55 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 08:10 AM
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No fair, donkeys don't count!
Do sheep?
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post #56 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 09:12 AM
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Temple Grandin says domesticated dogs are wolf puppies that do not mature due to genetic selection. This is supported by brain MRI's of young and mature wolves.

Just thought I'd throw that in. Wolf puppies apparently are playful and willing to please, until they mature.

Not sure I'd want a horse as eager to please as some dogs who want to jump up on your chest and lick your face. Hee

The Mustang has no place in modern society. The Mustang belongs either free on the range or in a forever caring home.
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post #57 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 10:31 AM
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Temple Grandin says domesticated dogs are wolf puppies that do not mature due to genetic selection. This is supported by brain MRI's of young and mature wolves.

Just thought I'd throw that in. Wolf puppies apparently are playful and willing to please, until they mature.

Not sure I'd want a horse as eager to please as some dogs who want to jump up on your chest and lick your face. Hee
Yes, it's called neoteny. It's fascinating -- in the famous Siberian fur fox breeding experiment, it was found that selecting for tameness and friendliness in fur foxes creates foxes that have white paws, noses and chests (ruining their value as pelts). That's caused by incomplete maturation, as those areas are the last to be pigmented in utero.

Grandin isn't exactly right though; dogs are a separate species from wolves, which split off some 40,000 years ago. They evolved to be scavengers in human encampments. In order to tolerate and be tolerated by humans, they did what the foxes did -- stopped maturation early. This was not selection by human beings but rather, the tamer wolves were able to get in closer, ingratiate themselves with humans, so got more food and survived to pass on their genes. They also have smaller brains and teeth -- didn't need those for group hunting any more.

So next time you are trying to decide whether your dog should be eating canned buffalo and sweet potatoes, or raw meat and ground up vegetables which mimic the diet of wolves, remember that for 40,000 years dogs have been eating garbage, offal, and feces, and thriving.
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post #58 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 07:02 PM
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I read about the Siberian Fox experiment. Maybe in Grandin. Result looked somewhat like Border Collie as I remember.

And don't blame Grandin. I likely misquoted somewhat.

I Googled neoteny. I think I may have a little of that. Psychologically speaking that is. hee
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The Mustang has no place in modern society. The Mustang belongs either free on the range or in a forever caring home.
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post #59 of 60 Old 06-11-2016, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Avna View Post

Grandin isn't exactly right though; dogs are a separate species from wolves, which split off some 40,000 years ago. They evolved to be scavengers in human encampments. In order to tolerate and be tolerated by humans, they did what the foxes did -- stopped maturation early. This was not selection by human beings but rather, the tamer wolves were able to get in closer, ingratiate themselves with humans, so got more food and survived to pass on their genes. They also have smaller brains and teeth -- didn't need those for group hunting any more.

So next time you are trying to decide whether your dog should be eating canned buffalo and sweet potatoes, or raw meat and ground up vegetables which mimic the diet of wolves, remember that for 40,000 years dogs have been eating garbage, offal, and feces, and thriving.
In those 40,000 years a dog's gut hasn't lchanged, nor have its teeth.
Dogs are classed as omnivores yet their gut is short and does not cope with grains very well and their teeth are still those of a carnivore.
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post #60 of 60 Old 06-12-2016, 01:27 AM
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In those 40,000 years a dog's gut hasn't lchanged, nor have its teeth.
Dogs are classed as omnivores yet their gut is short and does not cope with grains very well and their teeth are still those of a carnivore.
Wolves eat a lot of things besides meat too. They are not as carnivorous as felines. But you are right, can't make a vegetarian out of a dog.

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