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post #21 of 27 Old 03-12-2018, 05:16 PM
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Some points

1. e-collars may break up fights or they make the dogs fight harder. E-collars are intended to be used on dogs trained to respond to them, while working at a distance from the handler, under the influence of high prey drive. They are mainly used by hunters for signaling to their dogs in the field, and by ranchers who use cow dogs.

I would not use an e-collar in these circumstances at all.

2. Just because you didn't see a provocation doesn't mean there wasn't one that you didn't see. It could also be that something had been building up without human notice between these dogs and the one saw his moment.

3. Obedience training has very little effect on dog-on-dog aggression. Once two dogs go at it, they are blind and deaf to all else anyway. Remedial social training by a specialized trainer is the only kind of training that matters. "All Positive" training (the bane of reality-based dog trainers everywhere) is even less useful.

4. A person should never be walking a dog so big they cannot fully control it despite good equipment. People end up in the hospital that way. Side note: a harness is just about the least effective thing to walk a dog with. I wouldn't walk any dog in a harness that wasn't perfectly okay OFF leash, unless it was small enough to grab and pick up easily. With a big dog, you'll become a human sled.

5. Pulling and aggression are two separate issues. The reason it is so hard to train a dog not to pull is that dogs LOVE to pull -- it is a self-rewarding behavior. You either have to provide a punishment worse than the pulling is enjoyable, or provide a pleasure that tops pulling, to get a confirmed puller to stop, if you are using a flat collar.

The only thing I can say about the aggression issue is to not jump to conclusions (poor breeding, crazy dog, poor training . . . ). If you don't know why it happened you need to get someone who is skilled at dog psychology to help you figure it out.

I have never seen an 'all-positive' dog trainer who didn't have incredibly ill-mannered dogs. I could tell you a million stories but it just gets me furious all over again. I can't believe anyone pays these people.

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post #22 of 27 Old 03-13-2018, 02:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9kenai View Post
Have you asked either (or both) owners if anything has changed at all in their households? Sometimes changes in the households, whether the owners realize it or not, can cause changes in the dogs behavior and then in group situations they can react differently to dogs they normally get along with OR that they normally do not get along with. Other dogs may pick up on the stress coming from the dog who is reacting to the changes and then react differently to them, too.
! :)
Ah, there you might well have hit the nail on the head!

Vickie is in the process of moving home. She is moving to her Mother's where she works. They have a pre school nursery. It isn't far from where they are living so Vickie is taking things down there gradually. Reggie use to go there and stay in his crate which is why he started to come to me.

As I have said, he is a very sensitive dog so maybe it is stress/worry about what is happening though he hasn't really been out of routine as such.

Thanks
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post #23 of 27 Old 03-13-2018, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avna View Post
Some points

1. e-collars may break up fights or they make the dogs fight harder. E-collars are intended to be used on dogs trained to respond to them, while working at a distance from the handler, under the influence of high prey drive. They are mainly used by hunters for signaling to their dogs in the field, and by ranchers who use cow dogs.

I would not use an e-collar in these circumstances at all.

2. Just because you didn't see a provocation doesn't mean there wasn't one that you didn't see. It could also be that something had been building up without human notice between these dogs and the one saw his moment.

3. Obedience training has very little effect on dog-on-dog aggression. Once two dogs go at it, they are blind and deaf to all else anyway. Remedial social training by a specialized trainer is the only kind of training that matters. "All Positive" training (the bane of reality-based dog trainers everywhere) is even less useful.

4. A person should never be walking a dog so big they cannot fully control it despite good equipment. People end up in the hospital that way. Side note: a harness is just about the least effective thing to walk a dog with. I wouldn't walk any dog in a harness that wasn't perfectly okay OFF leash, unless it was small enough to grab and pick up easily. With a big dog, you'll become a human sled.

5. Pulling and aggression are two separate issues. The reason it is so hard to train a dog not to pull is that dogs LOVE to pull -- it is a self-rewarding behavior. You either have to provide a punishment worse than the pulling is enjoyable, or provide a pleasure that tops pulling, to get a confirmed puller to stop, if you are using a flat collar.

The only thing I can say about the aggression issue is to not jump to conclusions (poor breeding, crazy dog, poor training . . . ). If you don't know why it happened you need to get someone who is skilled at dog psychology to help you figure it out.

I have never seen an 'all-positive' dog trainer who didn't have incredibly ill-mannered dogs. I could tell you a million stories but it just gets me furious all over again. I can't believe anyone pays these people.
Thanks Avna.
I agree with you over the use of e collars, Arthur has one on because a) he would continually bark in the van b) because he would want to start a fight. He has had a couple of vibrates in the van and one shock (low) and if he looks at other dogs in 'that' was I only have to beep him.

As for harnesses I wouldn't give one house room. I ask owners what do they put on Huskeys to pull a sled?

A friend who sometimes walks with me went to Paul, the positive trainer - first time dog for her too, she has a smart little Lurcher, she told me that Paul has a new pup, now 6 months old Lab and he is having terrible problems with her pulling and being disobedient. I just laugh, naughty of me I know.
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post #24 of 27 Old 03-13-2018, 10:44 AM
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In the Modern Family sitcom there is a scene where a man is showcasing his groundbreaking dog training kit. When the dog is good she get's a treat, when she's bad...she get's a treat. When asked about this "the Good Dog treats taste better"

(and to continue- to prove his point he offers both and she grabs the Bad Dog treat and won't touch the other!)
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post #25 of 27 Old 03-13-2018, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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Yogi, that reminds me of a TV programme testing dog foods after several people had complained their dogs wouldn't eat it.

Several bowls of food were laid out, varied from tinned food, raw and cooked meat, chicken and this new dog food. They brought on a variety of dogs singly and let them pick, most went for the cooked chicken non would touch the new food. Then they brought on a Beagle who thought he had died and gone to heaven, he started at one end and inhaled every bowl until he came to the new food, he missed that and continued - there were about 8 choices.
On reaching the end he returned to the one he had left and managed to get it down. As they stood there so the dog threw up!
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post #26 of 27 Old 03-13-2018, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogiwick View Post
In the Modern Family sitcom there is a scene where a man is showcasing his groundbreaking dog training kit. When the dog is good she get's a treat, when she's bad...she get's a treat. When asked about this "the Good Dog treats taste better"

(and to continue- to prove his point he offers both and she grabs the Bad Dog treat and won't touch the other!)
Haha I don't watch that show but I think I'll try and look up that episode!

When people ask me what type of dog trainer I am, I tell them "I am a dog trainer." Period. Every dog is an individual and responds differently to different types of training methods, thus to limit yourself to one type of training method is severely limiting the chances of a dog and owner becoming successful in their training endeavors at best, and at worst could potentially lead to the abandonment of a dog or a dog being PTS due to a trainer not stepping up and changing how they approach a problem behavior (or accepting that the behavior is over their heads and sending the dog and owner along to a more qualified trainer). I think trainers should try to expand their teaching toolboxes as much as possible so as to help the dogs that come to them as much as they are able to. A lot of dog training is teaching the owners, but a big part of that is understanding what works for their dog and then teaching them how best to communicate with their dog.

I think pure positive training has its place with certain dogs in certain situations, but it is definitely NOT an "ends all" means of training.
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post #27 of 27 Old 03-15-2018, 01:56 PM
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Has anyone seen the Nature episode on wolves? I will never look at wolves or dogs the same way again! Viewer discretion is advised.

In case you haven't seen it wolves will kill any non pack members they meet. If they find puppies, they kill them. If they find a lone wolf, they literally rip him apart. Similar to gang wars in people.

Dogs are related to wolves. So it should not be surprising, when strange dogs attack each other in meeting for the first time. This is something people don't seem to understand and is the reason why dog parks are a lawsuit waiting to happen.

What is odd about this situation is that these dogs are pack mates and typically get along well.

I had one dog who could be very grumpy towards other dogs. He would snap sometimes without warning. He resource guarded the porch and kicked my other dog outside, even in the rain. He passed at 11 yrs due to cancer. But I think it was personality and perhaps poor socialization as a puppy that contributed to his issues. He was the most obstinate dog I have ever met.

As a child, my family always had mentally balanced, nice sweet dogs that no one had to worry about. All muts from the pound.

Of the last few dogs we have had, only one out of 4 was mentally balanced. Why I ask myself?

I think the reason is that the only dogs bred in this area are by irresponsible breeders. With low cost spay neuter, the nice dogs aren't being bred. That leaves an abundance of pitt, Labrador, and shepherd mixes at the pound, most with questionable mental health issues.
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