What is abusive?

RoadRider / Rios Dad · Dec 23, 2009

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:
I don't have fear, per say, but I do know what I can't handle and whats too dangerous for me. I, unfortunately, am not a strong guy who can handle a whole bunch of beatings, I am a skinny little girl and I've been hurt trying to go past my limits. I do try to be brave, but I do tend to get nervous sometimes.

BTW I couldn't hurt any kind of animal, either. lol I can't even squash a spider. lol

You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you. I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.

kitten_Val · Dec 23, 2009

RiosDad said:
You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you. I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.

Ha-ha! Thanks, RD! Most of us need to hear it from time to time. Lol! Merry X-mas to you (and everyone else) too!

SmoothTrails · Dec 23, 2009

RiosDad said:
You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you. I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.

RD that is definitely what a lot of people need to hear...lol. I know I fall into that category of having that fear and having to try to work through it. I've been working hard to get over it and ride more and more difficult horses. I have disagreed with some of your methods before, but I am learning from my step-dad that it works well if you know what you are doing. You are a lot like him. And it seems that you turn out really good horses.

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

mom2pride · Dec 24, 2009

barnprincess said:
you need to remember this isnt the wild... horses cannot survive long if they are let to fend on their own with no other horses. ive seen people with horses in their back yards , alone , in 4 ft of snow no blanket no shelter makes me wonder if they even have water. i think thats pure abuse and in the state of NY it IS abuse and you can have your horse taken away.

If a horse were actually left out (no fences), he would actually probably fare quite well. Out here where I live, it's not uncommon for people to turn their horses loose at any given time, to graze over the open prairies, even in the winter time, the horses are still loose; they are rounded up and caught when they are needed (for ranch work, or otherwise). Granted I live in high desert, but when I was growing up, our horses were always out in the fields scratching for food, EVEN while there was hay available; and forget bringing them in sometimes, even in the middle of snow storms...they would stand out in the middle of the field, butts to the wind; we'd have to go out and bring them in!!! They aren't so removed from nature, that they couldn't live that way if they had too.

Now, I am not talking about the people who have horses living in small paddocks, and not feeding often enough, or having a shelter available...yes, that is abuse in the form of neglect.

But to say a horse absolutely couldn't survive if it was turned out in in the wild...that's pretty far fetched. Humans have made horse life 'cush', by adding blankets, heated barns, and limited turn out, for fear of the horse getting 'too cold'...I grew up in MN, and my horses were NEVER blanketed, even in some of the most inclimate weather; they had access to shelter, but rarely used it, until I brought them in.

Now, back to the actual OP's question, I think what I constitute as abuse is 1) owning it, but not caring for it (ie, feeding, and making sure there is adequate water) or 2) inflicting pain just to inflict pain; can be out of anger, or otherwise, but isn't constructive.

Allison Finch · Dec 24, 2009

kevinshorses said:
^^^Exactly!! It is much better to address the problem before you need to punish the horse. Instead of kicking the horse in the belly after he kicks you, why not check the horse out and find out if it's a kicker and solve the problem in a pro-active way. The only reason a horse kicks is because it thinks it has to to save it's life.

Well, there are times when extreme measures are warranted.
I train using positive reinforcement and my students will tell you it is RARE that I ever use "corporal" punishment.

BUT, there is a time and place....

Many years ago I was new to a riding team. I came with the reputation of getting along with rank horses. The coach pointed to a stall and said that was my horse. He said, quietly "be careful when you go in his stall". I guess I should have listened more carefully....

When I fully entered the stall, the horse pinned his ears and attacked. All I could do (my exit was blocked) was kick him with my instep (top of foot, not the toe) right under his belly. He stopped and stared at me. Three times he attacked, three times I kicked back, but only one kick for one attack. I refused to leave the stall until this was resolved, or I would never have been able to deal with him. I spent and hour standing there as we measured each other up. He, eventually came over to check me out closer. This time he was interested in being touched. Needless to say, from that time on, we became a team and competed well together. No one else could, or WOULD, ride hime. I loved that guy, and I believe the love and respect were mutual.

What I did was born in neccessity and was not inflicting pain, as much as showing that I was going to stand my ground. I don't remember ever having to lay a hand on him again.

MacabreMikolaj · Dec 24, 2009

Well unless a tree line counts as shelter, we are horsey abusers. We typically get mass amounts of snow and temps in the -40's all winter, for many months, and our herd lives outside 24/7 without blankets (except my Arab mare who never grows a proper coat) and no "shelter". Funny how they all come though into spring fatter then when they went in.

Kansasbarrelracer · Dec 24, 2009

Wow so many different views on this. Great topic Kevin.

From reading what other people read then I must be one abusive son of a gun. When my horses are bad, you better believe their gonna get a smack on the muzzle or a kick to the belly.

I don't do it for the hell of it. I do it because my horses need to know that what they did was wrong, and they tend to never forget that. You have 3 seconds to discipline a horse before they don't know why you did it. I always react within those 3 seconds. I will not let my horses get away with ANYTHING. Biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, cow kicking, etc. my horses don't know the meaning to any of those when I'm around.

But as for abuse, I see it as someone consistently whipping their horse for no good reason, using high ported bits (I hate them), using any type of equipment that is ill fitting or hurts the animal in any way, shape, or form.

I have friends who's horses say outside 24/7, with no shelter, or a blanket and thoses horses are just fine. Yes they have water, and yes they have hay but her horses are fat and happy. They stand against the trees to block the wind, so in all I don't believe its neglect for a horse to be out 24/7 without a blanket.

Marecare · Dec 24, 2009

The root causes

We have just scratched the surface of the topic and this might be called "Chapter two"

Now I am not talking about the actual smack or kick here,but the ground work that sets up the situation of abuse.

Husband and wife get pressure from their daughter buy buy her a pony because the neighbors bought their little girl a pony.

The wife pet a horse when she was 8 year old and an aunt got her 3 riding lessons for a birthday when she was 9.
Mom thinks this is a great idea and has been promised by a friend to help out and it will be great.

So mom and dad want their daughter to have what they had when they were growing up(but they really didn't have it either).
Dad remember the visits to his grandfathers farm and "OL Gus" the plow horse and he is filled with memories also.

So off to the auction they go to find their daughter a pony.
Now the friend that is going to help pick out "Sparkles the wonder horse" had 5 lessons when she was 9 and so she is in charge of the operation because of her superior insight.

Dad is put in charge of converting the old gardening shed into housing for Sparkles.
He uses what ever he has on hand for the project and follows the basic guide of "well,it's just a horse".

Food?
We have lots of weeds that need to be taken out and maybe this is a way to get out of doing that and having a little more time to watch some football is dads first thought.
Dad thinks they are buying a goat.

Now things are going along pretty well because Sparkles had not been wormed for three years before he got to the auction and he is so underweight that he doesn't even care when the little girl climbs up on his back and hang on to the mane.
Mom just thinks it looks so cute and takes a couple hundred pictures to send to the relatives.

This is just one of thousands of scenarios that get played out every day across the country.

Tell me one of yours.

Erin_And_Jasper · Dec 24, 2009

"All I could do (my exit was blocked) was kick him with my instep (top of foot, not the toe)"

thats what i was saying/ment!!!

mom2pride · Dec 24, 2009

Well, mine isn't what I would call 'abuse', as much as just plain ignorance and stupidity; something like what yours is...

My first year in college I met a family at the church I was attending; turned out they had a yearling Paint\Mustang colt who was out of control. They had bought him the prior year off of a feedlot; they got him back into condition, and he was well cared for, but they had NO clue how to train a young horse. They were of the mentality that "lets get one that our daughter can grow up with."

Well, when they found out that I trained horses as a 'side' when ever I could, they asked if I could come out and evaluate him. So I went out one night after prayer meeting, and yes, this boy was out of control.

He bit, he would kick, charge...anything to get "his" way. HE was in control. So after the owner stepped away from the gate (hadn't entered), I asked for a lead rope. I went stepped in the stall\run in and when he came at me, I flung the lead rope at his chest...he gave me a "what the???" type look, and backed off a few steps...he tried charging again, and I did the same...this time he went out the gate and into the paddock. We kept doing this 'dance' until he finally came up with a friendly curious posture. When I reached to rub his neck, he snaked his neck around to bite me, but I just raised me arm...he hit my elbow and decided he wouldn't try that again (at least for that night). When that was over, I was rubbing his neck and body all over, and when I got around to his right side, he tried to strike at me with his front foot...I flipped the lead rope at his chest again, and we started our 'dance' again...til he finally came up, friendly, and let me rub him all over. This was not a horse who was afraid of humans; on the contrary, he was so used to being the leader, that he had a hard time submitting to leadership. It took a long time for me to undo the damage.

Like I said, not necessarily 'abuse' in the terms most people think of, but if a person goes into horse ownership blindly, the horse will suffer, whether it's physically, or mentally. I wound up buying that horse from my friends, spent two years training him, and wound up selling him to some really good friends of mine.

Erin_And_Jasper · Dec 24, 2009

thats a good story M2P. if i had an outta control horse i'd take your methods. and im not being sarcastic at all

Marecare · Dec 24, 2009

I believe that "abuse" is widespread and just everywhere.

Why is it that every other horse that gets rescued or purchased for a very low price is described by the new owner to be "Abused" and mishandled?

There has to be someone out there that is beating up all these horses.

So who is it?

kitten_Val · Dec 24, 2009

I consider my paint as abused. However the guy I took her from as yearling considered it as "training". Well. If 24/7 in 8 X 10 (if not smaller) never cleaned stall in mud up to the knee and the rope on neck tied to the rail so the guy can drag the horse to the wall is TRAINING (of course I don't even talk about never done hoofs, never done deworming, and underweight), then I don't know what ABUSE is. :shock:

snoggle · Dec 25, 2009

Marecare said:
I believe that "abuse" is widespread and just everywhere.

Why is it that every other horse that gets rescued or purchased for a very low price is described by the new owner to be "Abused" and mishandled?

There has to be someone out there that is beating up all these horses.

So who is it?

Yes, abuse and neglect are rampant. The problem is that the people who are doing the abusing don't feel that they are abusing their horses. Usually they think they are training them or "not babying them".

My neighbor thinks he is quite good to his horses, but after I boarded mine there for a little while, I beg to differ. If a horse isn't doing what he wants, he assumes that they are acting up and either hits them or forces them to do what they don't want to do. I've seen him do this when there was an obvious tack problem (ill fitting saddle which resulted in severe saddle sores, bleeding mouth from a too tight bit). Once he forced a horse to cross an ice filled creek, even though she didn't want to at all - she got stuck in the frigid water and almost didn't make it out alive. He once forced the same horse to keep going in the dark when she didn't want to, she ended up falling in a deep trench that was in the road that he couldn't see. They both ended up badly injured.

(BTW - Hubby and I tended to the horses wounds - owner couldn't be bothered to check on her himself or call a vet! :-x)

He doesn't ever trust their judgement or give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of his "forceful" training would be appropriate if the horse really were "acting up". But all too often the horse is using good judgement or reacting out of fear or pain - behaviors which should never be punished! I had a hard time differentiating this when I first got my girl and I was opposed to any physical methods. Then I saw how much the horses kick and bite each other and realized that there are times a smack from me is okay (like when my mare really did try to test me a couple of times with biting for no reason - I smacked her immediately, she's been a delight ever since).

This is why it isn't black or white. This is why you don't have people posting, "Hi my name is Bob and I abuse my horses daily." Saying you punish a certain behavior isn't enough to differentiate abuse from training. It often depends on why the horse is exhibiting the behavior and whether or not the owner or trainer tries to figure that out.

What is abusive?

RoadRider / Rios Dad

kitten_Val

SmoothTrails

mom2pride

Allison Finch

MacabreMikolaj

Kansasbarrelracer

Marecare

Erin_And_Jasper

mom2pride

Erin_And_Jasper

Marecare

kitten_Val

snoggle

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