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Accepting the Horse as an individual

2K views 19 replies 16 participants last post by  HooverH 
#1 ·
Another thread to to invoke rational thought.

Every horse is an individual with their own personality and perception of thenselves and their environment.

If that is truly the case then can anyone "train" a horse or "break" a horse without first understanding their society, their language and who they are as an individal??

One step further== How can one believe that they can sucessfully "train" or "break" a horse without establishing a discernable method of communication between the individual horse and the carnivore human??

Understanding the huge leap of faith that a prey animal must take to offer respect and trust to a predator--and yes thats what we are--how can we violate or ignore that leap??

It is what it is.

Most predators--thats us humans--think that we determine what the individual horse should be--"He will be a cow horse", "she will be a champion reiner", "my horse will be a good trail horse" etc.

Another way of thinking: Help the horse adapt and understand what it takes to live in the world of the human and provide them the tools and skills necesary to "be all that they can be'!!

If you provide an environment that does this and , at the same time, encourages them to be what they are, is this not the best way???

The only thing that is required is basic and simple. If you own or train horses then every chioce needs to include this basic idea.

Remember its us humans that have butted in and forced the horse to change and comply with our ideas and beliefs. Who to breed to, live in a
box, do what I say, eat unnatural things ( sack feed) the list just goes on and on.

Understand this and you will have a better understanding of what the word "respect" means to a horse.
 
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#3 ·
To be honest I haven't rationalised my relationship with my horse too much. She seems happy and confident and does as she is told. I haven't gone out into the paddock with her and thought, "oh dear, I am a predator I hope she can accept that!" My relationship with my horse is what it is, I think that some people definitely over think the whole horse/human dynamic.

There has to be some level of understanding that horses have evolved with people, horses and people have been intrinsically linked for centuries. Most horses that are in association with people have been born into the human world, lets face it the percentage of horses that have no human contact what so ever must be quite low. The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe that we are as foriegn to horses as some would like to think. I have read on this forum again and again that horses can read our body language. This means that we are communicating with horses all the time whether intentionally or not. While there are definitely many horses that have been severely put upon by people I think most horses see us coming a mile away. I don't accept that all horses spend their entire existance in fear of the "predator human". I think that horses have been bred to be 'humanised' to a degree. Similarly, as are cats and dogs.

Having said all that I would like to say that it really pisses me off when an individual horses is not judged by it's own nature. Instead in some fields horses are expected to perform based on their blood lines, the performance of sire, dam, siblings or breed. Thoroughbreds are a typical example, a young horse is bought based on its bloodlines and the performance of it's parents etc. The young horse is expected to be as good if not better so is pushed and pushed until it either succeeds or is broken. Horses that come from jumping bloodlines HAVE to jump, horses from racing bloodlines HAVE to race and win, whether the horse has the heart or temperament is irrelevant and so isn't judged as an individual anyway. I find this type of exploitation of horses really sad.

I don't think that all horses are victims of humanity, I think that most of us do pretty well at respecting the horse. To be honest I think there is a strange irony in the fact that amatuer horse owner, little girl, with no money makes more effort to communicate and be good to her horse than Mr Megabucks horse owner/trainer who could care less about the nature of the horse because at the end of the day he has spent thousands on them and needs a return on his investment.
 
#4 ·
To be honest I haven't rationalised my relationship with my horse too much. She seems happy and confident and does as she is told. I haven't gone out into the paddock with her and thought, "oh dear, I am a predator I hope she can accept that!" My relationship with my horse is what it is, I think that some people definitely over think the whole horse/human dynamic.
I agree. I love my horse dearly and consider the relationship I have with him to be one of the greatest relationships I have ever had. But our relationship really isn't all together that complicated and the more someone tries to complicate it the less they seem to get out of it. I cannot think of a single being I enjoy being around than Cougar (except my dog, I'd consider him equal). It's a simple bond that has grown and keeps growing stronger with time.
 
#7 ·
Great post. It's things like the ones posted that people sometimes don't give much thought to. Horses shouldn't be tools or robots or slaves. My horse, before I got him, was being forced to be made into an Eventer. He likes jumping, but not like that. Their mentality was, "You were bred for this so that's what you're going to do." As a result, I had a lot of extreme issues to work out when I got him.
 
#8 ·
Great post, very interesting and something I wish more horse owners would take into account. I am currently starting four 3 year olds for one owner and spent some time yesterday explaining that they will all progress at different rates according to how they take to training and their own personal comfort level.

E.g. The Arab stallion is very intelligent but needs to learn to concentrate on me rather than other horses, I won't take him too far until he learns that. Her filly is very nervous (thanks to a past owner) and I won't push her until she is comfortable with people, saddles, bridles etc. Her Quarter horse on the other hand can't wait to be worked with, yesterday he had pushed his nose into the headstall before I had even got through the gate into his paddock! He will probably be ready to go on rides as early as next week. The last Arab filly is somewhere in the middle.

They will all get there however I believe you have to take into account all of the nuances in horses personalities/past experiences, there is no set time line for starting horses as they are all different.
 
#9 ·
If that is truly the case then can anyone "train" a horse or "break" a horse without first understanding their society, their language and who they are as an individual??

Its a fact a horse can be broke without any understanding of their nature. Before the age of the horse as a hobby animal. Back when a horse was the only means of transportation, many were broke by means of fear and pain. Horses were broke quick and dirty. This method is still used, and it does work. Its the human (at least some) that has changed not the horse
 
#10 ·
If that is truly the case then can anyone "train" a horse or "break" a horse without first understanding their society, their language and who they are as an individal??
All 'training' or 'breaking' is, is just putting time in for a horse to learn you are the leader. Horses are prey animals, and are natural followers even if that horse is super dominate in the herd, you can still show him (or her) that you are their leader.

There are different methods. Each one does come out with different out comes and attitudes sometimes for the horse. But over all each one does work.

When it comes into the amount of time to do something, sometimes that horse just dosen't comprehend what you are telling it to do, so it takes longer. Each method I believe out there theoreticly will break a horse for you. But each one will end up that you are the leader (if done right), and the horse will naturally follow.

If you provide an environment that does this and , at the same time, encourages them to be what they are, is this not the best way???
Sorry, but this is making me think you've read up on some Nevzorov stuff. I believe that if you 'let a horse be a horse' and 'let a horse teach you' to the extreme ways that Nevzorov does.... you are putting yourself in danger big time. Watching his videos and his pictures... all I see are horses flying through the air, kicking at his head (which is sure to end up not ending well). He comes in saying 'the horse is always right'.... I do believe the horse being right and 99.9% of the time its the riders fault.... but seriously, I also believe that why he decided to never ride his horses again (not because it is harmfull to their backs...) but because his horses have become too wild for him to properly 'ask them' to perform movements... because his horses have become too enveloped with doing what they want to do, because he never pushes them to go furture and listen harder to what he is asking of them.

But if this is what you want in your horse... go right ahead ;-).

Like I said earlier in my post... each training method comes out with a little different results for each horse.

If that is truly the case then can anyone "train" a horse or "break" a horse without first understanding their society, their language and who they are as an individal??
Look at what they did in the old times.... all they did was wear out the horse and showed that human were leaders, and the horse went into submission for them. I've seen horses broke like this, and a lot of the times surprsiningly if, done right, the horse ends up being a hell of a lot mroe respectfull of people then the gentle handed trained ones.

I think people today have gotten so soft with their horses that they don't understand that mix signals for a horse will only come out with frustration on your half. But most of the humans out there don't understand that most of the time its their own fault that their horse isn't listening to them.

Pressure and release - all the methods I know out there use this in some way in their training... and it always works. Its putting your horse to work, then rewarding them in the end. Either that being from the simple of pulling on the rein then releasing it... to pushing your horse hard galloping through a feild and then letting your horse rest at the end of the day.

In the end... respect can get you further in understanding your horse.
 
#13 ·
It shouldn't be a matter of MAKING the horse do anything. I like to find the middle of the road with both situations....I personally wouldn't have gone back, unless the situation become dangerous (but good preparation would prevent that), but I wouldn't have said "You WILL go across this." MAKING a horse do something does not improve their confidence. What needs to happen is we need to help the horse gain confidence by approach and retreat. "Expect a lot, accept a little, reward the slightest try." So in this scenario my thought is I want to cross the ditch...as I approach my horse hesitates, starts to tense up, or refuses to go further....this is a sign of unconfidence so I'd stop and allow him to relax. Once he relaxes (head low, licks and chews, blinking eyes, no tension, etc) I ask him to go. If he only offers one step I take it and reward it. I wait for relaxation then ask again, or back him up a couple steps, depending on what he's telling me. Waiting for relaxation is what prevents explosions or fights.
 
#14 ·
A horse can be trained with virtually zero understanding of their herd dynamics or how they think as prey animals but it is so much easier if you can use their own instincts and reasoning as a prey animal against them. For most of us, the thought of physically overpowering a horse and forcing them to do something they don't want to do is unimaginable. We can't overpower them, we have to out-think them. Yes, every horse is an individual and will react to a set stimuli in a different way. That is why, as trainers, we have to be prepared to completely change our gameplan away from the norm if we notice that something isn't working. That is one of the problems that I have with many of the BNT's is that they say "Do this and your horse will react this way." But the problem is that no 2 horses will react the same way. If you tell them to go out in a circle, some horses will just stare at you like you are the dumbest thing to walk the earth, others will tear down the roundpen trying to get away, others will circle perfectly, and still others will go on the offensive and come after you with hooves flashing and teeth bared. All from the same amount of pressure and same signals sent by the handler. It can be done with zero understanding but the horse will usually end up confused and hateful and the rider will generally end up hurt. What really cracks me up is people who think that every horse in existance can be sorted into 1 of 4 personality profiles and set up a training method specifically geared toward that profile instead of the horse himself. That's like trying to do the same with people LOL.
 
#16 ·
I do think that a lot of people get too set in their ways as far as training horses goes. They tend to figure "it worked for horse A so it's for sure going to work for horse B!" This is why my advice to most people who want my opinion is to arm yourself with every single method you can lay your hands on, because you can guarantee that at some point a horse is going to throw something at you that you were not expecting and for your sake it's a good idea to be prepared enough to correct it swiftly when they do.

For example, I worked 3 horses the other day who all reacted to being asked to circle completely differently. Rowdy took off at a canter when I asked for a trot and proceeded to nearly collect the arena fence on the way round. He wanted to run, so I made him run faster than he wanted to and I made him negotiate his way between me and that fence every time around. When I stepped away from the fence and asked him back to the trot, he made a nice transition downwards and politely circled until I asked him to stop.

Jaffa decided that he had no worries circling at a walk, but a trot was just too hard. So I got after him, ask, tell, demand. I demanded that he trot. That was enough for him, he just needed an initial reinforcement of exactly who was the leader in the situation. After that he'd break in to a trot with very little effort on my part and would slow down & stop with just an exhale from me.

Fanta was a different situation entirely. She's young & still green and circling, we've noticed, doesn't seem to be something that was spent a lot of time on in her initial starting. So I would ask her out at a trot and she would take a few steps in the right direction, swing her butt around and aim both her back legs at my head, before taking off in to a nice trot around me. She was pulled back in and sent off in the other direction. When that butt came at me, I made myself as big and as scary as possible, complete with growling. I pulled her head back around to the circle I was asking her to move on and put the pressure on her to move. That was it. No more flying hooves, just nice, calm circles.

In each situation, it was required to be handled a different way. It was important that my question was asked louder and louder each time I had to ask it, but it was more important that it was tailored to the answer's I was receiving from the horse.

Anyway, I think I may have gone on a bit of a tangent there, but I guess I was just trying to say that I do agree that every horse is individual and it is important to try to be prepared to be a leader for each horse that crosses your path. It is never the right time to stop learning!
 
#17 ·
I think that all horses need to be trained differantly. Every horse has a differant manner of training that it needs to reach its full potential. Sure, a trainer can train every horse the same way over and over, but all they'd be doing is creating clones of the same horse over and over, and when a horse with a little personality comes along they don't know how to handle it.

I am learning alongside my trainer Toni who knows that every horse is differant In fact, when she takes on horses she does the first week free so she can get to know the horse. She doesn't lose money because the people who deliver the feed and stuff park their trucks at her place and as a fee she gets the hay or bedding or whatever they happen to be hauling. Good thinking :)

I have started one colt without any help, and I followed Toni's methods to the letter. I got to know him and built a relationship before I even put a halter on him. Now, he's a three year old and he's mine, not Mom's, Toni's, Dad's...Mine. He doesn't care for anyone else.

I know horses who were totally insane for everyone except for one person. My friend had a horse named Stupid Boy who would only talk to her, and I remember being chased and attacked by that horse. I have a scar on my side from where he bit me, and that horse nearly snapped my leg when he kicked me. Luckily he didn't get that much momentum.
 
#18 ·
Horses certainly have their individual personalities/perceptions, but I don't cater to them. Rather, I use the individuality to train better. I would never get harsh on my Morab mare, Cassie, as I would with my current mare, Dilly; Cassie was simply too docile and willing. Dilly is bold and smart and has a serious attitude problem that needs to be kept in check, so I cater my training styles around her. The results were/are the same for both mares, yet the methods are different.

Good post 5cuetrain!
 
#19 ·
To be honest, "method" is a word that I try to stay away from. When someone asks me what type of method I use to train, its almost like they are asking me what type of method I would use to raise a child or make a friend.

Is every horse an individual? Yes, but that doesn't mean that I make exceptions out of what I expect out of any of them. Its crazy, but often when I am training a horse, I think back to my childhood. My family was very active and my dad was always pushing it, never accepting anything less because we were younger. Whenever I was afraid of something, he wouldn't leave until I had conquered my fear, over time, I grew a lot of faith in the fact that if Dad said it was ok, he would not let me get hurt.

I find that when people work on methods, then the faith is in the methods and the success is in the methods, rarely in the relationship. They think that every time they hit a kink, there is a method to work it out. Strangely enough, I do not dream of special "bonds" with my horses any more than I do with my family and friends, because that is the same thing that my horses are.

When people watch my horses load into a tight trailer in succession without me having to step inside, I am commonly asked what methods I use, but the truth is there is no method. Once a horse is at my barn and in my care, they will just start doing that after a matter of time. They don't find faith in the method, they find faith in the fact that even if they are afraid of what I'm asking them to do, that I wouldn't let them get hurt. I have had horses that are terrified of trailers willingly walk into that trailer after never working with any kind of method.

If I push, I don't give up, I don't approach and retreat, but I never ask the horse for more than they are mentally or physically ready for, just more than they think they are. That builds their confidence.

The horse is not a machine, or course it has baggage, confusion, personality tendencies. However, when training, I don't waste too much time worrying about where that horse is in life or where they have been, I spend my time thinking about where that horse can be and how much happier they will be when they get there. I deal with what I get when I get it, understanding where they are coming from, but never accepting anything less than what they are capable of.
 
#20 ·
I should have been clearer. My boys can suggest and ask, but the final decision is mine. I chose that Gun and I should go back, not him. He asked if we could, but I decided. In the herd, he would be allowed to ask or suggest, and the alpha would say if it was good or not. Say he found a nice patch of clover, and he asks if he can eat there. All body language, of course. The alpha would either let him eat there, or chase him back to the herd.

I should further explain, Gun has never, to my knowledge, been a trail horse. This was our first attempt at the trail, and I asked him to trust me to go alone. He told me he wasn't ready for that, so the next time we'll try it with a buddy. But we will do that trail, and he didn't get out of work by asking, he just had to work in the arena.

I suppose I told this because it illustrates horses as individuals. I most likely would not have taken Hoover's suggestion to turn back, unless he was hurting. I would have questioned him hurting, as well, as he likes to fake it sometimes to make me worry. Bottom line, he's a butt. I love him, but he's got a mind of his own so I have to be more demanding of him. Gunner is very laid back and sweet, and does most anything I ask (I can pick his sheath and even check him for beans, no halter. He just stands there) so for him to make a suggestion, I'm more likely to take it at face value. I know he's capable of taking the trail, but if he wants to go slower, we can go at it slower.
 
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