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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can you tell anything about his conformation? Is there anything I need to be awarhttps://www.horseforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1000817&stc=1&d=1576460056e of ? He is a TWH
 

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I will give this a go. We just joined the gaited horse world 4 years ago. And have done a lot of research on the breed and bloodlines of our horses.

1. The colt is young and butt high - that is OK - just pointing it out
2. The colt looks very post legged in the back. It may be how he is standing in the picture. This will make it harder for him to get his legs underneath of him and get a really nice smooth gait out of him
3. The colt has a very short back- ideally a horse (any breed) should be even by thirds in conformation. his back is very short with a high wither. This could make saddle fit an issue in the future. I have a very short backed TWH mare (Grand Daughter of Ebonies Masterpiece and Midnight Sun) and Haynes bloodlines in there too. She is very short backed. Saddle fit has been an issue but her gait is to die for!
4. The colt appears to have a shorter thicker neck with a thick throatlatch. This probably will not affect his riding overly much but if shown it is not as pleasing a long more refined neck and throatlatch.
5. He appears to have good bone and it not too light
6. His shoulder angle looks good and is not too steep

All in all not a bad looking colt - and some of those things may change a little as he grows up and his body matures.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Lakota 6 months (2).jpg



Is this picture any better? Can you tell anything else for this?
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Pedigree
BLUE STREAK DLK #21900536
(DLK Blu Double x She’s Got The Luck) Blue roan colt - 15.1 hands
Foaled June/2019 (Blood typed)

Sire Pedigree:
DLK Blu Double
Reflection In Blue RSW
Frostys Reflection
Frostys Perfection R.
Elwanda
Gen's Celebrated Lady
Generator's Genuine Jazz
Celebrity Lady
Double Visions Anne Okley
Ole Blue's Double Vision
Bum's Souvenir
Mack's Lady Bum
Ole Blue's Lady
Bum's Souvenir
Masterpiece Lady S.A.
BLUE STREAK DLK #21900536

She’s Got The Luck Dam's Pedigree:

Luck Of The Doc
Doc's High Tribute
Dr. Elmer
Anne's Mystery
One Pushy Lady
The Pusher CG
Ebonys Merry Society
Two Timing Thief
Pusher's Jewel Thief
The Pusher CG
Mark's Black Jewel
Gen's Two Timer
Prides Generator
Brenda's Threat

I wished I knew how to add their pictures so I could get in put about their confirmation. If anybody knows I would like to know how.....
 

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From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.

Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.
 

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I disagree with not tying a youngster. I tied mine alongside their dams from about a week old - always supervised.

What I would never do is to tie any horse to a gate.

When you have seen the damage a horse can do to itself when it pulls back and the gate gets entangled with them then you would either.

I have picked up four horses for the hunt that were destroyed after being tied to a gate. .
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I will give this a go. We just joined the gaited horse world 4 years ago. And have done a lot of research on the breed and bloodlines of our horses.

1. The colt is young and butt high - that is OK - just pointing it out
2. The colt looks very post legged in the back. It may be how he is standing in the picture. This will make it harder for him to get his legs underneath of him and get a really nice smooth gait out of him
3. The colt has a very short back- ideally a horse (any breed) should be even by thirds in conformation. his back is very short with a high wither. This could make saddle fit an issue in the future. I have a very short backed TWH mare (Grand Daughter of Ebonies Masterpiece and Midnight Sun) and Haynes bloodlines in there too. She is very short backed. Saddle fit has been an issue but her gait is to die for!
4. The colt appears to have a shorter thicker neck with a thick throatlatch. This probably will not affect his riding overly much but if shown it is not as pleasing a long more refined neck and throatlatch.
5. He appears to have good bone and it not too light
6. His shoulder angle looks good and is not too steep

All in all not a bad looking colt - and some of those things may change a little as he grows up and his body matures.

Carshon, What time of gait do you thank this colt will have from his confirmation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.

Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.
Loosie, The previous owner had a special set up that he had fixed up to tie his young colts that they couldn't get hurt and get used to the pressure. He had his trainer already tying him up to get use to the pressure before I bought him. The previous owner was getting him ready to show him in halter class, if he kept him. I think it was more for the colt to have the experience.

I have had him in cross ties with his halter and he done very well with that. He stood crossed tied just long enough for me to brush him down, left of his legs and tap on them. He seems very good natured right now and my previous experience is exposing to as many things as possible and let him get use to it. I introduce one thing at a time and review or repeat the same things over and over in a very steady routine. Colts learn a lot during the first 2 years of their lives and part of their play can be desensitizing them to so many different things. A large round ball, jolly balls and even cones can be set up into their play routine. Every lesson is kept to short increments with a set goal in mind. Every time you work with a weanling, yearling or horse you are training them. I want mind to learn respect, trust and patience.
 
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I judge horses based on the skeletal structure - we call this "Functional Conformation". It's based on studying many different disciplines and then applying the knowledge of horse a horse moves, why he moves that way, and what is causing him to move that way. Do keep that in mind, as many people judge conformation in many different ways(particularly the "uphill v. downhill" debate), but I've found this to be the most scientifically sound and best explained method so far that actually gives results. If you're interested in what exactly it is, here's the basic PDF guide on functional conformation: https://www.hcbc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2018-Functional-Confirmation-draft-revision.pdf

First off, your youngster is rather butthigh but that's just a growing stage, so unless the dam and sire are butthigh I wouldn't worry about it. He'll level out once he starts maturing a bit more. He has a good neck emergence, located above the point of shoulder. According to functional conformation, this is one of the "big three" that we use to tell if a horse is uphill or downhill. A horse with a neck emergence lower than the point of shoulder will have more trouble lightening his forehand and shifting weight back on to the hindquarters - which is essential for longevity, as a rider adding weight to the horse's back and the unnatural position that many horses are ridden in causes the back to hollow, head to raise, and stride to shorten, in turn causing more impaction on the spine and eventually even can be the cause of kissing spine and other issues. In functional conformation, we judge based on how well a horse can do it's job without pain or hindrance due to conformation.

One fault this is poking out to me is that he's sickle hocked. In my opinion, I'd rather have a slightly post-legged horse than a sickle hocked one due to the fact that sickle hocks add more strain to the horse's tendons and ligaments, since he cannot align the bony column under himself to help hold himself up - he would have to stand camped out to get his hocks angled correctly, and then that would defeat the purpose as the legs are too far out behind him to hold a considerable amount of weight. Your horse only appears a slighter degree sickle hocked, as long as his health is taken into considerable and he's not pushed beyond his limits I think he'll be fine. Post-legged should also be defined from being sickle hocked - post-legged refers to the too-straight angulation of the hock, while sickle hocked is the over-angulation of the hock. For comparison: http://cruzminihorses.com/images/miniature-horse-hocks-358x167_1_.jpg

He also lacks musculature on the neck, which makes him appear to be slightly ewe necked but I don't think he has a true ewe neck. It looks like a muscling issue rather than a skeletal issue to my eyes. (Do consider though, a young horse will often be poorly muscled until he fills out a bit more so this is nothing to be worried about or out of the ordinary. If he continues to have an incorrectly muscled neck throughout his life it's likely due to a high and tense headset, and training will be needed to teach him to relax and stretch out some.)

Overall, he has a nice uphill build. I'd be very excited to see how he fills out and what he looks like as a better muscled 2 or 3 year old, even with the sometimes gangly gaited horse type he looks like he'll turn out nicely with correct work. ;) His cannons are slightly long for my taste personally, but that's nothing that will affect him in work really unless you're planning on GP dressage. :)
 

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Not seeing sickle hocked at all myself, unless you're talking of the right hind, which I think is likely more postural than 'structural', assuming any is truly structural. That's something I did miss earlier, that in all 3 pics(inc the avatar one) he is standing with his right hind forward(if they were both forward & weighted, that would be 'sickle hocks'). Of course, this may be just a coincidental 'moment in time' thing, but if he habitually stands this way, I'd be thinking there was a hip prob or such(common in foals to have hip &/or shoulder probs from 'birth trauma') & I'd be looking for a chiropractic vet to see to him.

Another thing I missed is that he's tied to a gate! - ditto to Foxhunter on that note! If you are going to tie a horse firm, it must be to a firm, unbreakable structure, like a wall, a deeply bedded post etc. By all means, I believe babies should be taught to yield to pressure, to 'tie' calmly & reliably. But that needs to be done in a safe manner, without them actually finding themselves trapped & feeling the need to fight for their lives. Hopefully that was the way his previous owner went about it. I would not tie ANY horse firm, unless they've had a number of lessons learning it's all OK without the risk, and I wouldn't tie a baby 'hard' until they were very reliable about yielding to halter pressure & comfortable & relaxed about standing firm. The thing with youngsters is, the bones of their neck are some of the last to 'close' and harden, and they are quite fragile when immature. So the main thing is teaching them well first, before putting them in that situation, but as 'stuff happens' & even well trained horses can panic & fight, so I just feel why risk it, with easily damaged youngsters. Seen more than a couple of horses put down for 'wobblers', which was attributed to being tied & fighting...
 

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@whisper2myhorse I am not sure how his gait will be - as I said I see a colt that appears to be post legged in the back. From my research in walking horses I have found that a nice gaited horse will have a more pronounced hock that allows them to really reach under themselves. I don't see that in this colt. His gait may be a little shorter or choppier. I have seen your post where you mention that he racks in the field- I am not as familiar with a racking horse as I am with one that running walks. Racking is more of a speed gait and as I had mentioned most riders in my area do not ride with speed in mind as the trails would not be safe at high rates of speed. If he was bred from show stock he may have higher leg action in the front and not be able to gait as fast as a horse with a more sweeping motion to their gait. That is hard to tell from a picture as he has a nice slope to his shoulder.

I am not familiar with any of his bloodlines - this is not a critique just a comment. I do not show at the breed level for TWH and no longer get the Voice as I never really read it and I am against Big Lick and did not want to support it by getting the Voice. If you are familiar with his lines and how those horses move that would be one of the best indicators of how this colt will move as an adult.
 

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He's standing with the hocks over-angled in both pictures, and in the first as he's standing with all four legs weighted then you can see the true position of the hocks. Postural would indicate pain, and you can often tell a posture issue from a conformational issue as a postural issue will cause a degree of stiffness throughout the whole body. The horse will also often stand with his neck outstretched(especially if it's an issue in the hocks) to attempt to shift more weight forward and off the hindquarters. This horse is standing sickle hocked and even if he were to be set with his legs back, they would still be over-angulated, and as he does not look tense and stiff, I would call this a conformational fault rather than a posture issue. Also it may be noted that sickle hocks are extremely common in gaited horses due to a supposed belief that it makes it easier for the horse to reach under and gait(which is incorrect, as sickle hocks merely cause the illusion that the horse is actually reaching under).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
He's standing with the hocks over-angled in both pictures, and in the first as he's standing with all four legs weighted then you can see the true position of the hocks. Postural would indicate pain, and you can often tell a posture issue from a conformational issue as a postural issue will cause a degree of stiffness throughout the whole body. The horse will also often stand with his neck outstretched(especially if it's an issue in the hocks) to attempt to shift more weight forward and off the hindquarters. This horse is standing sickle hocked and even if he were to be set with his legs back, they would still be over-angulated, and as he does not look tense and stiff, I would call this a conformational fault rather than a posture issue. Also it may be noted that sickle hocks are extremely common in gaited horses due to a supposed belief that it makes it easier for the horse to reach under and gait(which is incorrect, as sickle hocks merely cause the illusion that the horse is actually reaching under).

Oh, no! What kind of pain do you think it is? What do you recommend me to do? I called the vet right after I read this comment and have an appointment to get him checked out on December the 27th. Should I have him checked out before then? Should I have my farrier to look at him. Is sickle hocked a major concern, can a farrier help with that? I know that you stated it was common in Tennessee Walking Horses. Will this mess his gait up or can he learn to over come it?
 
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@whisper2myhorse

No, the point was that he's not standing due to a postural pain. It's a conformational fault - an inborn fault in bone structure that cannot be changed. You cannot alter skeletal positioning and ratios, after all. I don't think he's in pain - he looks quite relaxed and happy, actually.

Sickle hocked of his degree are not a major concern in my opinion. What they will do is make it harder for him to reach under properly and round his back, so I'd suggest working "long and low" with him when the time comes for riding. It'll help him learn to stretch out and strengthen his back as well as the rest of his body. Ground poles also never hurt. ;) One concern I do have is the type of bit - many people are under the impression that a gaited horse must be ridden in a gaited bit and with a high headset. This is entirely based on showring fashion and also entirely false. A gaited horse can be ridden in any bit(my MFT mare went in a short shank curb for years as a fully trained and finished horse, and she gaited beautifully), and they absolutely do not need an absurdly high headset just as any horse does not. My MFT traveled wonderfully without the high headset and gaited bit, and in fact a high headset will hollow the back and make it even harder for him to reach under himself and drive.

As for a vet check - honestly, it wouldn't hurt to get a vet's opinion. It never really does, but unless you're concerned about how he's acting or if you think he's in pain - I wouldn't bother with it right now. He does not look at all to be in discomfort from the photos. I myself have a rather sickle-hocked Peruvian Paso/Welsh pony cross that can get sore hocks from hard work, but he's rarely lame at all from regular riding or work. It's more something to watch for than something to worry about, really, unless you're planning on reining or something of the sort that causes a lot of stress on the hocks. As a regular riding horse or lower-level competitor, I think he'll be absolutely fine. I am sorry if I caused you any worry, I didn't mean to come off as if I thought he was in pain. I was actually denying that. ;) For farrier work, just make sure have a good one that doesn't chop off the heel. If he has no heel and sickle hocks... that's lameness waiting to happen. As for gaiting - he'll be fine. Many gaited breeders actually breed for sickle hocks(though I consider it a fault, due what I explained in my first post), so I can guarantee you that most TW are sickle hocked and they still gait just fine. ;)

Happy riding!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I disagree with not tying a youngster. I tied mine alongside their dams from about a week old - always supervised.

What I would never do is to tie any horse to a gate.

When you have seen the damage a horse can do to itself when it pulls back and the gate gets entangled with them then you would either.

I have picked up four horses for the hunt that were destroyed after being tied to a gate. .

He is not tied to a gate. I would never tie any horse to a gate, especially not a young colt, or even a seasoned horse. He is not tied to anything. I do have his halter on him. If you look at the picture closer you will see that his lead rope is just hanging on the gate to keep it off the ground. I was wondering why someone had mentioned about tying horses up. I do believe in using cross ties when they are young but I am usually standing their brushing them in the cross ties.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
@whisper2myhorse I am not sure how his gait will be - as I said I see a colt that appears to be post legged in the back. From my research in walking horses I have found that a nice gaited horse will have a more pronounced hock that allows them to really reach under themselves. I don't see that in this colt. His gait may be a little shorter or choppier. I have seen your post where you mention that he racks in the field- I am not as familiar with a racking horse as I am with one that running walks. Racking is more of a speed gait and as I had mentioned most riders in my area do not ride with speed in mind as the trails would not be safe at high rates of speed. If he was bred from show stock he may have higher leg action in the front and not be able to gait as fast as a horse with a more sweeping motion to their gait. That is hard to tell from a picture as he has a nice slope to his shoulder.

I am not familiar with any of his bloodlines - this is not a critique just a comment. I do not show at the breed level for TWH and no longer get the Voice as I never really read it and I am against Big Lick and did not want to support it by getting the Voice. If you are familiar with his lines and how those horses move that would be one of the best indicators of how this colt will move as an adult.

Yes, the rack is shorter chopper gait, and it is faster. I enjoy the gait. So yes, the may be build for the gait that I prefer. I am excited about that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@whisper2myhorse

No, the point was that he's not standing due to a postural pain. It's a conformational fault - an inborn fault in bone structure that cannot be changed. You cannot alter skeletal positioning and ratios, after all. I don't think he's in pain - he looks quite relaxed and happy, actually.

Sickle hocked of his degree are not a major concern in my opinion. What they will do is make it harder for him to reach under properly and round his back, so I'd suggest working "long and low" with him when the time comes for riding. It'll help him learn to stretch out and strengthen his back as well as the rest of his body. Ground poles also never hurt. ;) One concern I do have is the type of bit - many people are under the impression that a gaited horse must be ridden in a gaited bit and with a high headset. This is entirely based on showring fashion and also entirely false. A gaited horse can be ridden in any bit(my MFT mare went in a short shank curb for years as a fully trained and finished horse, and she gaited beautifully), and they absolutely do not need an absurdly high headset just as any horse does not. My MFT traveled wonderfully without the high headset and gaited bit, and in fact a high headset will hollow the back and make it even harder for him to reach under himself and drive.

As for a vet check - honestly, it wouldn't hurt to get a vet's opinion. It never really does, but unless you're concerned about how he's acting or if you think he's in pain - I wouldn't bother with it right now. He does not look at all to be in discomfort from the photos. I myself have a rather sickle-hocked Peruvian Paso/Welsh pony cross that can get sore hocks from hard work, but he's rarely lame at all from regular riding or work. It's more something to watch for than something to worry about, really, unless you're planning on reining or something of the sort that causes a lot of stress on the hocks. As a regular riding horse or lower-level competitor, I think he'll be absolutely fine. I am sorry if I caused you any worry, I didn't mean to come off as if I thought he was in pain. I was actually denying that. ;) For farrier work, just make sure have a good one that doesn't chop off the heel. If he has no heel and sickle hocks... that's lameness waiting to happen. As for gaiting - he'll be fine. Many gaited breeders actually breed for sickle hocks(though I consider it a fault, due what I explained in my first post), so I can guarantee you that most TW are sickle hocked and they still gait just fine. ;)

Happy riding!

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I think that I am so concerned about this little guy, that I immediately called my vet's office. They are use to me calling for everything. It is just about time for his next vaccination anyway so it's not a big deal. I have been concerned about him resting or favoring that one leg, fetlock, hock or pastern. Not quite sure what, I think that is probably why I thought he might be in some pain. He hasn't been getting much exercise because I been keeping him stalled up until he adjusts to the new surrounds. Also, I can't be here during the day to put him up out of the weather that has been brutal lately. That would explain for the lack of muscle and swollen hocks. I also have been concerned because he seems to be too laid back. He doesn't get excited about anything right now. I have never had a young colt to be this calm, he hasn't really spooked at anything. Not that I am complaining it just seems abnormal so I am worrying there might be something wrong with him.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.

Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.

He isn't tied to the gate at all, his lead rope is hanging on the gate but he doesn't have a lead rope on him. I think it is the color of the gate, I had to look at it closer with my glasses on . I would never tie any horse to a gate. He is just looking at the horses in the other pasture. This is the first time I had let him in a few days due to our weather. He was taking it all in.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I looked at all the pictures again to see what you all were seeing and mentioning about his conformation. I watched a few videos by the belated Brenda Imus about conformation. I have decided when I am off this weekend, I will get out a folding yard stick and try to reevaluate his conformation. My friend that was an expert on quarter horse conformation said that she didn't notice him being to much set or (sickle-hocked). She thought he had a really good conformation for a young colt. I personally have no idea. I know that he has stolen my heart and I just want him to be a healthy, respectful, smooth gaited horse. I will do what ever I can personally do to help make that happen.

She did say that she will look at the pictures that I posted, (which I just sent to her) and get me some feed back on them.

I will try to send some better ones after Christmas. The weather is suppose to be better.
 

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"Square" stance puts the body into tension in my opinion, and doesn't help with judging conformation. What's more, you can judge the basic aspects of horse conformation as young as 3 weeks really. The things such as the lumbosacral gap(LS gap) do not change, nor does the neck emergence or "pillar of support"(essentially just a line showing how much substance is placing weight on the front legs). Using these three things, we can judge foal conformation, though the body may change some, the basic skeletal structure will not.

But moving on from that - he's really not that butthigh when you draw a line from bum to withers. I'll bet he'll even out when he gets older and his front catches up. As you can see by the lines I'd drawn, I'd 100% call him sickle hocked. You should be able to draw a line from bum down to the ground and the lower leg's angle should be close if not matching that angle. For example, here's a horse who's 100% not sickle hocked:



I also marked the neck emergence(the upper line orange line) in comparison to the point of shoulder(the lower orange line), showing that he indeed has a very nice neck emergence.



The image is blurry, but conformation is skeletal structure not muscular definition so I think for the very basics of horse conformation judging, it's fine. You can easily see the angulation of a leg or the neck emergence with this level of image quality, though you may not be able to judge the LS gap quite correctly.
 
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