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Mia took years before she'd stand still when tied. But you could do anything with her with the lead rope tucked into your back pocket. Hole? To someone who valued tying, yes. I didn't give a rat's rear and who is someone else to tell me it is bad?

After 12 years, I'm working on getting my horses ready to trailer. They have all trailered at some point in the past, but I didn't (and still don't) have a good trailer, nor a truck rated to haul a 2-horse trailer (with horses). If I had a 3 horse stock trailer, I think all three would be fine. My trailer, however, is short enough that Bandit can reach food at the very far edge without bringing his hind feet inside...so I'm a bit stymied at the moment.

I guess I'd call that a hole, but I'm pretty sure Bandit just thinks I need to get a bigger trailer....

A friend of mine bought and trained horses for 50 years. People who had one told me they were awesome horses. Desert trail horses. Only bit ever put in their mouths' was a solid, low port curb:

People rode them the rest of their lives, off trail in the Sonoran Desert, using that bit alone. Hole? Why? Horses and riders were happy. I'm told they were "Go anywhere, Do anything horses" - IF YOU RODE IN THE DESERT. Of course, they'd suck at a Dressage test. Unless someone took the time to teach them the skills for that.

From my perspective, Bandit is a horse I trust to ride without a helmet. He sometimes likes some light contact but would resent it if it was all the time. He's sensible and sane. Like Mia, he cannot sidepass in an arena. Like her, if there is a reason to do it, he'll do it at a tiny nudge. Seems to me what is important is that he likes people and is pretty willing to do things they ask. As long as a different rider didn't bully him, he'd take that cooperation ethic with him into dressage training, or polo training, or jump training, or reining.

PS: I stink at basketball and can't stay upright on ice skates. I have "holes" in my athletic training. I'm just....devastated.🤣

PSS: My horses don't come when called. They've trained me to go to them....

 

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Now if I ask him he will try, and if he walks a step but is too scared he stops again. I can ask several times. If he won't keep going I know it is too scary so I get off and lead him past it.

Done this what seems like a million times with Bandit. Except....it rarely happens now. Compared to 3-4 times a ride a few years back.....

 

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"It did not occur to me that if these so-called easy solutions could change horses’ behaviors so dramatically, then why were these horses being passed around from owner to owner, and why weren’t those who were giving the advice just fixing all of these horses..." - May, Evelyn. Training Problem Horses (pp. 4-5). Kindle Edition.

The problem of expert advice with simple solutions extends well beyond horses. The problem of people BELIEVING in those same experts is also vastly larger than just horses. The older I get, the more value I see in trying different things - informed, but not controlled, by other peoples' experiences - and then discarding what fails and trying something else - for that particular horse, etc. A friend of mine controls his weight as a vegetarian (although he'll eat meat if visiting someone). I use Keto. My sister does neither, but controls her portions. Why would any sane person expect one size to fit all? But we do....

I just found out I can get a kindle app for my laptop to read kindle books. Not sure I'll use it much. I confess to a strong fondness for the look, weight, feel and even SMELL of an old, hardback book! I've got a copy of The Seven Pillars of Wisdom that is 80 years old. Not something you leave for the grandkids to mangle, but the binding is tight and it just feels like a portal into the past. Same with my copy of Born Free, which is nearly as old as I am. But when I open it, I'm transported into Kenya in the 1950s....

"The other rider explained to me that if I could stay calm myself and relax, my mare would soon mellow out as well. She told me that horses sense nervous riders..." - May, Evelyn. Training Problem Horses (p. 5). Kindle Edition.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't count the number of times I heard that from other riders or people on HF! My favorite related story:

When I first took up riding, a lady was working with a very hot Arabian. She was obviously struggling. Afterward, I asked her how long it took to get a horse to settle down. She glared at me. "She's 25. I've had her since a foal. Give me your phone number. I'll CALL when she "settles"!" She then stomped away while I tried to find a rock to crawl under.

 

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So there were rabbits but the horse wasn't telling you about them....Unfortunately, this means for some horses they have to show you this fear reaction a few times to learn not to do it...Otherwise you simply cannot avoid the big explosion, but you have to go there in order to help the horse stop doing it.

That describes Mia and Bandit both. Mia threw in an added wrinkle: Her "Surprise!" reaction was a 180-360 degree spin. Got her to where she would THEN listen to me, but never got her past that violent "What the heck?" reaction. The solution, as best I can see, was for her to live in a place where she could see for miles in all directions. and therefor just not be startled by something suddenly appearing:

I don't think ANYONE could get her to stroll through a neighborhood or anywhere with limited visibility. My frustration was (and with Bandit, still is) all the people who insist she just needed proper training in an arena. Holes in her training, you know. Needed to learn in a snaffle - as if she didn't have YEARS of riding in snaffles and even bitless. Or that I was at fault, and my nervousness made her tense.

And people KNEW this even though they had never met her, let alone tried to ride her!

Bandit has become quite good in places he knows. But if I took him into a strange section of desert, or if we move to a different place....we'll have some issues. And to many, that proves I'm a failure. After all, if I was just a "leader", or would take time to learn to control my horse's body. Then I could "insist" my horse stay still, facing any threat, and even move forward at The Great Leader's command!

I felt guilty for years. I eventually started to think, "How about YOU try tossing YOUR leg over her and see how it goes!" You cannot solve these sorts of issues in the arena. You have to ride to "Where There Be Dragons" - and survive, and eventually convince your horse you both will survive...until, at least, you find a NEW place with dragons! Then the training begins again.

PS: Agree on teaching a horse to lower their temperature faster. But that is like strength. It has genetic limits. I could live in a gym and never look like a bodybuilder. And some horses will never stop caring about what is around them, and some will always take longer to cool than others. You do the best you can in the time that you have in the place where you live. If you do that, you are not a "failure". Merely mortal. And Mia and Bandit had/have no problem with reminding me of my mortality.... ;>)

 

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I've seen no correlation at all between my confidence and my horse's. It apparently works for some horses. But I've been on some massive spooks - and flat out bolts - that started with me feeling utterly confident.

 

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I partially agree. We can reinforce their fears if we make a big deal out of something scary. If I am freaked out about something, I can transfer that. Sometimes.

But most of the spooking I've encountered has involved stuff that I had absolute confidence about because it never occurred to me a horse would object. Things like a Palo Verde tree that had just blossomed. A few weeks later, the same tree after the blossoms fell off. Bandit and garbage cans - he'd go past 20, 30, 50 in a row without objection. I'd feel like they were no matter - and then he'd SMELL something in one that looked identical to me to the previous 50 he passed calmly. So HE would freak when I was utterly confident we had no issue. A lady walking on the street - with a BACKPACK! OMG! Really?

The worst spook Bandit did was with a rider who was 6'2" tall, lifelong rider, young man who was certain there would be no problems. He was riding with the other 2 horses in a group. Bandit saw...what? None of the 3 riders knew. Was it a sight? A smell? No one knew, but Bandit bolted across three neighbors yards, ducking beneath trees and swerving around walls. Then acted like his rider should be grateful Bandit saved him.

I've also experienced the flip side. A swarm of migrating bees,, thousands of them, flying low enough that I ducked down on the saddle to avoid them. I was SCARED. Bandit lowered his head and kept walking steadily. "Nothing to look at, bees. Just a horse taking care of his rider!" Once in a while - rarer now - I'll have a Mia flashback and get very tense on Bandit. When that happens, Bandit...cocks an ear. Then he takes care of me.

I think some horses are just more independent minded. Bandit doesn't give a rat's rear if the other horses walked past X without concern. If HE doesn't trust it, then he figures the other two are just fools. Treats me the same way. Over years of time together, I can sometimes give him the confidence to press on. I think that is what you are referring to: The ability of a rider to read, understand, and then give confidence to a horse who is less than thrilled!

I think Bandit now understands I have excellent eyesight. If I see something, and tell him it is safe, he usually goes fine. Now. But the flip side is he understands his hearing and sense of smell are vastly superior to mine. So if it is a smell that bothers him, I cannot give him confidence. Because he knows I don't know. And how can you trust the guy on your back if he can't smell the scary thing? To include both javelina and rattlesnakes. So he has justification - real world experience - where I have blindly tried to get him to do something that truly was not safe!

I suspect a confident rider could ride Cowboy anywhere. Maybe Trooper. But not Bandit. And not Mia. And I honestly prefer Bandit and Mia to Trooper and Cowboy.

 

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How long have you had Bandit? How old is he?

Had him since 2015. Prior to that, he was frequently raced in relay races, running 10-15 mile legs on the Navajo Nation. He's 12-13 now.

There comes a point where explosive spooking and bolting is just plain unacceptable, even if it's something new or "justifiable", but that is just my opinion.

So...if a horse can be ridden in rural Oklahoma, the same horse ought to be able to face NYC without reacting? Because he's learned to trust his rider?

I have a fundamental disagreement with much of the horse world: I think some horses are independent thinkers and WILL evaluate things using their own criteria. Forever. I've never seen any sign Mia or Bandit would ever give all decision-making over to a human. On the flip side, I've met a number of horses who wanted the human to make all the decisions.

I think intelligence plays a factor. Bandit has learned he can detect threats I physically cannot. He's too smart to believe I know all and am able to protect him from all threats. Unlike Trooper, who has little imagination or thinking power. Trooper is happy having the rider decide everything. Bandit never will.

When racing, Bandit did learn he would be severely punished if he didn't go. And I was told, when I got him, "If you can ride out the bucks, you can make him go anywhere!" When he got here, he suppressed his fear until he couldn't. It took WORK to get him to express his fears and learn I would work with him to find a solution we BOTH found acceptable. It meant riding out spooks until he rarely spooks. But could I ride him tomorrow down the streets of Tucson? Not hardly!

Most of us ride in a particular environment. Mine is the Sonoran Desert. Tough teaching it to Bandit, but he's now OK with the Sonoran Desert. But if I rode him into a rodeo arena? I'd better be prepared for a rodeo.

 

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I don't know if Trooper is afraid of cattle or not. He was used on a sheep ranch with sheep because he preferred working sheep. The ranch has a couple hundred cattle but Trooper didn't work well with them. My friend loaned him to a ranch with the provision they would NOT use him with cattle. So he arrived at the ranch and...they tried to make him cut cattle. He was returned to my friend's ranch with bloody holes in his sides, which had started to scar over when this photo was taken:

He still has the scar tissue on both sides, although it is worse on one side than the other.

I suspect we all agree that trying to spur a horse into doing something he just cannot take is NOT the right way to get him to learn to do that job. But his riders at the Colorado ranch were obviously not afraid in any way. Trooper...afraid of cattle? I don't know. He grew up around them at times. He'll ride past them okay. But certainly a confident rider was not the answer to making him more forward. Not even supremely confident riders equipped with spurs. He was 7 at the time and had been ridden thousands of miles by that time. And he has the least imagination of any horse I've ever met.

Once we were riding in our little arena when the neighbor's kids started playing on a trampoline in their back yard - behind a fence. All Trooper could see was kids being tossed in the air. Screaming kids! Trooper froze. I couldn't get him to budge. Dismounted. Couldn't lead him a single step. He didn't move a single hoof a single inch for 20+ minutes. Then he sighed, looked at me....and I led him back to the corral, his head at my shoulder. He never blinked an eye at the kids playing there again. 99% of the time he's a point and go horse. But screaming, flying kids? That was his "umbrella" moment!

PS: Mia had an umbrella moment. Literally. A lady walking along the road with a pink parasol. Mia threw it into reverse and we went backwards at high speed until we had cactus on three sides. Then she stopped (thankfully). By that time we were working much better together. But she stood, shivering, panting, staring. As the lady got closer, she heard me screaming at her. She finally folded her parasol. Mia stared for 10 more seconds, then turned and stared at me as if to say, "Why in the HECK did she do that to me?" Then we walked past her, Mia shouting silent mental curses at the uncaring woman. I had complete confidence thru the entire episode. But MIA did not.

PSS: Bandit still has times where he'll turn and look at me as if to say, "I like you boy. But your fellow monkeys are first-class, undeniable JERKS!" I mean, who puts a 6 foot tall inflatable PENGUIN in their front yard in southern Arizona? Who can blame Bandit for thinking humans lay awake at night, trying to think of ways to torment innocent horses who just want to walk through the neighborhood....

 

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Both broke bones falling off, after spending months on groundwork before riding. In both cases, the horses had minor spooks riding out of the arena. Not bucking or bolting, just a quick dart away from something scary....It's kind of sad so many are left without guidance when beginning under saddle.

The last part was written about the horses, but I guess I feel some for the riders. One of my pet peeves is that people can take lessons for years and then fall off a horse who squirts 20 feet sideways, or drops into an "Oh My Goodness!" Crouch. I think there is something seriously wrong with riding instructors who don't teach defensive riding.

Pure "Good Riding" is different. It's goal is to make things easier for all when performing on a well-trained, obedient horse. What works best for that isn't the same as what works best when a horse might spook or suddenly throw things into reverse. You wrote here about defensive riding:

I believe that if you are going to err, go on the side of leaning forward rather than too far back. If you're in a nice western saddle, most things the horse will do won't cause you to fall off. But I've seen people in western saddles on the beach when the horse bolted, and seen them trying to recover to a neutral position after having their weight swept back. Your lower back isn't super helpful for fighting yourself up against the force of a horse running forward. Better to be in a slight forward lean when something crazy happens, and then you'll at the worst end up at neutral or very slightly behind.

I disagree because I learned defensive riding on Mia on ATV trails. Her startle reaction was 180 degrees of spin. Sometimes 360, which puzzled her. Sometimes more than 360 degrees. But 95% of her spooks involved the OMG Crouch - a sudden stop, dropping her shoulders as she spread her front feet far apart, plus dropping her head down to her knees, OR a 180 degree spin followed by a bolt.

I think defensive riding depends on the horse. If a horse loves the OMG Crouch, being a little forward was....not helpful. If a horse likes to do a dropped shoulder spin, being forward can be a very bad thing. If the horse is likely to jump an invisible fence or explode into a forward bolt, then being forward helps a lot.

Bandit is most likely to squirt forward about 60 degrees off from the original direction of travel, or to simply slam on the brakes. Both of those are reasonable to ride out with nothing more than a deep leg - and maybe not that. Being "with the horse" is enough with Bandit. Being "behind the horse" could be a life-saver with Mia.

A western rider who falls behind the horse and then can't catch up needs to learn basic defensive riding, western style. "Put your free hand on the horn. PULL YOURSELF FORWARD. Now resume riding!" One hand on the horn in a violent spin helps a lot too: If you keep your shoulders above the horse's back, it is almost impossible to fall off. Horse suddenly drops to his knees? One hand on the horn prevents your shoulder from going forward. No amount of "core strength" can match a brace from the horn to the shoulders for stabilizing one's shoulders.

Doing that is frowned on by the western riding instructors I've met. My farrier was a bull rider in his youth. He says he puts one hand on the horn when things get dicey. He'd rather take a blow to his ego than a blow to his back - or head!

But....riding instruction. The lessons I took were variable in quality, but she did something I liked. She had all her new students canter on her best horse in a round pen, under her voice control - on their first lesson!. And she'd have the horse canter and stop. Or walk and then do a canter transition. Told the student to hang on if needed and just feel the movement. Her thought was that any horse can spook or bolt unexpectedly but a rider who knew the feel had a better chance of staying on.

Lessons ought to include riding over uneven ground. Practice zig-zagging. Walk to canter transitions ought to be a staple. I think riding two point while doing sharp turns and staying in two point at a canter ought to be taught - and taught early, not 3 years down the road! I think a pseudo-Aussie saddle is ideal for learning:

For Mia, that was an ideal defensive position: Slightly behind, one hand on the horn, heels down and weight in the slightly forward stirrups. It wouldn't be ideal for an explosion forward but that wasn't on the books that day. There was a huge moving van about 300 feet ahead of us and she was NOT going to run TOWARD it! The poleys probably saved my life more than once. Nothing wrong with cheating when it can save your life!

By rights, learning on Mia should have killed me. I still have flashbacks at times. Getting rare now after nearly 6 years with Bandit. But riding instruction ought to prepare you to stay on a horse who squirts sideways, or suddenly stops, or who does a dropped shoulder spin. If the movement is violent enough, then sure - there are just times one is screwed! But I've watched both of my daughters fall off a horse (Trooper) who was NOT doing anything very wrong. He moved a little bit, they got a bit off balance - and then gave up. My youngest, in particular, was already too good a rider to just slide off a horse who was merely a bit bouncy.

As for getting an unbroke mustang and starting from scratch for the romance of it....people have watched FAR too many Disney flicks!

 

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I don't think for me personally the key is having the torso leaned back

I think we agree. I don't LEAN back. Ever that I know of. The difference is primarily in my leg position. For a horse likely to drop a shoulder and spin, my feet come forward. I also slouch a little in my hips: my pelvis rotates slightly under and my shoulders go lower as I relax my back. And then, even if using two hands, I'll bring my hands closer together. Maybe let my thumbs touch so I can bounce them off my horse's neck if I don't have a horn or just don't think I need to be defensive enough to hold the horn.

Your picture of Nala is what I'd call a good defensive position - at least for a possible spin. Stirrups well forward of your waist, heels down, I'm guessing weight in the stirrups and thighs. Your center of gravity is over your heels. Weight in the stirrups creates muscle tension in the legs and you don't want floppy legs if a spin suddenly starts! The Cavalry manual used these draws at a halt but elements of my idea of a good, all-around seat are there:

"Rider's weight, due to body's forward inclination, is on the crotch, thighs and stirrups." As I get more defensive, though, my back would relax and my spine would move - while remaining vertical - back about an inch. His heels are under his belt buckle.

During the last year I've starting thinking that maybe it isn't so much about center of gravity over the base of support - which is what the cavalry taught - as it is about having weight in your stirrups and thighs, thighs down and not forward - down as in your picture of Nala not angled forward like in the cavalry drawing of the wrong seat - with...pre-tension? Not sure what word to use ...in the legs because they are already carrying much of the weight? And when my weight is in my thighs instead of my rump, my weight and balance are around the horse instead of on top of the horse? I don't want to grip with my knee as much as with my entire leg and I want my weight in my thighs and stirrups and not in my buttocks. I want the muscles in my leg already activated. Not "braced" but involved BEFORE any spin or swerve sideways. Firm but not hard or rigid.

And I think riding instructors owe it to their students to discuss HOW to deal with spins, swerves, sideways jumps and a sudden shift of gears and acceleration forward as part of the normal "seat". I'd really prefer to get rid of the word "seat" entirely although I don't know what to replace it with.

PS: The wrong seat of the cavalry drawing wouldn't be improved, IMHO, by bringing the heel back under the hip. The problem is in the thigh, not the lower leg. Folding the leg would put more emphasis on the knee not the lower leg.

 

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It isn't just HF. Debate on most forums and on most issues becomes problematic. Much is now rooted in emotion: I feel, therefor I don't need to think. Others are supposed to "affirm" your feelings, not challenge them. I've battled weight issues my entire life. I'm extremely sympathetic to anyone struggling with their weight. But I draw the line at "affirming" someone who weighs 500 lbs is perfect just as they are. I'm not "fat-shaming". I'm not being hateful. Just....logical? But logic is hated and resented by a lot of people now. Debate used to be a taught in school. Now it's evil.

My closest friends challenge my opinions all the time! My wife has no trouble challenging my opinion and we've been married 34 years. I learn far more from those who challenge me than from those who "affirm" me!

I was frustrated with that thread. It was time for me to leave it regardless. When phrases like "child abuser" get tossed into a thread on training horses, not much good will follow.

Also: While I'm not a Clinton Anderson fan, at least I know he rides horses! I can watch him ride, and train, and decide what I think. If someone is going to instruct others on how to ride/train a horse, I'd like to know they've been on one.

 

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I love @Knave 's example. I think it makes the point beautifully and pretty much incontrovertibly. Although I suspect some posters would argue that with positive reinforcement training, ANY horse would quickly work cattle.

More to the point, lots of horses who could learn to work cattle would need to learn it slowly, a bit at a time. And would never enjoy it. While others would take to it like a Border Collie meeting sheep. I think my three could pick it up quick enough but I know for certain that if I tried it tomorrow morning, all three would try to shove me somewhere in the bovine that would be anatomically impossible! But it would be a huge hole for a ranch horse.

 

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The article the "gone bad thread" started with essentially said that while aversive training could get good looking results, maybe better than what some experienced using only positive reinforcement, that was only because the people using it hadn't learned how to TRULY understand and work with a horse:

"We need to recognize first that these are not the horses’ problem, this is something caused by the person. The person handling the horse may be better at using R- or not willing to take the time to retrain known R- behaviors or to retrain new, gentler tools so then the horse doesn’t understand these new tools or forms of communication. So the horse seems to prefer the “devil they know”, but in truth they just don’t know what gentler tools mean or how R+ could be wonderful if done right."

Why Would a Horse Prefer an Aversive? – Empowered Equines

empoweredequines.com

"But our pleasurable experiences, riding, agility, driving, or any sort of training that is not necessary to the horse’s wellbeing, it would be unkind to mix aversives into the scenario."

Choosing the Tack – Empowered Equines

empoweredequines.com

So the writer framed their argument in terms of positive works better and anyone who disagrees just isn't good enough or experienced enough or hasn't REALLY tried it. And if that means you can never ride a horse, that is OK. Because you are there to make the horse happy, while the horse has no "need" to provide you with anything. And while that might make the writer happy, it isn't real. It is expensive to keep horses and very few would be willing to pay for decades for a horse who doesn't have to give anything back except companionship. And maybe not that, since plenty of horses just aren't that thrilled by humans!

In many places, a horse who is never ridden is going to be in poor shape, just as a human who never gets exercise is. My three are out of shape right now because they aren't being ridden enough.

But it is fundamentally unfair to frame an argument in such a way that anyone who has a different experience disagrees because they are stupid, ignorant or just plain mean. I can point to a lot of horses, including my own, who seem very happy even though I expect things out of them. But the writer frames the argument so that merely means I don't really know my horses - even after up to 12 years with them! While the writer, who hasn't even met my horses, knows the real truth! Framed that way, no honest discussion can follow. To disagree is to be inferior at best and possibly malicious as well.

 

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Mia was a hot horse but also extremely willing. If she understood what you wanted and liked you, she'd try very hard to give it to you. Unless her emotions overwhelmed her, in which case she bordered on dangerous. Bandit is NOT a hot horse. He also likes to feel he is in control. But he seems to want to know you are willing to take charge. Willing and ABLE. If he thinks you are not, he may bully the human. Might be a difference in how they were raised. Or genetics. Or both. Bandit seems to do best with someone who can say, "If you want a fight, I'll give you one! But....how about we just go out together?" I think he feels insecure with a rider who isn't willing to rise to his challenge. But once he knows you will, he has no interest in fighting. It is more like, "Are you tough enough to take care of me?"

He doesn't need a skilled rider. He doesn't need or want a harsh rider. But he needs a determined rider. But not TOO determined!

I have no interest in what awards someone has won. I want to know how someone's horse changes over time as the person owns and rides him. Is the trend your friend, regardless of what sport or activity in riding you like to do? Is the horse becoming more willing to engage and interact with you? Or not? To use one of my favorite analogies, do you beat down the locked front door or are you adept at finding an unlocked side or back door?

 

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When I first got horses, I asked how much to feed them. Yep, that was my level of knowledge! The lady I asked - the one who had been trained by John Lyons - gave some base amount. I forget what. But then she said, "If your horses start losing weight, feed more. If they start getting fat, feed less. And they'll need more food in the winter, so be ready to adjust depending on how much work they do, temperature, etc." If you underfeed or overfeed a horse for a few weeks, not much harm done. The harm comes when you don't adjust as needed. Seems training is the same way. It isn't about the beginning point, but how you adjust based on how the horse is responding.

 

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When I got off and took Hero's tack off, I swear I've never seen him so happy. His entire posture was relaxed and pleased, and his eyes bright. It was almost like he enjoyed our little struggle and then getting past it. I think he really needed to get some of that energy off, and it made him feel good. But also, he seems to feel happy sometimes about having an "opponent" almost, as if the game is fun, like fighting geldings over the fence until they get upset with him and bite. Then he's like, "Whew, that was great."

Exactly! Lilly and Mia were NOT like that. Trooper is not like that. Cowboy isn't. But that's a good description of how Bandit sometimes acts! Now sometimes Bandit just decides he wants to take over as The Boss - and we argue over that. But sometimes....he just seems to enjoy a heated discussion. He needs it. For him. And I'm pretty sure he's be an absolute PITA if his rider refused to rise to the occasion. Your description is...Bandit. Not every day, but sometimes. Although some folks can't imagine it.

And if I hadn't met Bandit, I'd just have to take your word for it. Because I have had at least enough horses to accept they aren't all the same. And I've come to suspect folks with a One Way program of training and riding because it doesn't match what I've seen.

 

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To the extent I can remember life before I married, I sympathize with Hero. ;>)

and then whack him with the lead rope on the neck to get his head out of outer space

How cruel! You didn't just offer a sugar cube or carrot to distract him? You must not be enlightened! Although....I've punched Bandit in the neck and he barely notices. If he is wound up enough, he won't notice at all. People like to say "A horse notices a fly landing on him" - which is true, IF the horse is bored. I can hear a whisper, but not if I'm next to a jet engine. When Bandit goes on alert, a blow with a 2x4 might get a "Don't bug me boy! I'm busy!"

It is part of why I like riding him in a curb bit. Sometimes he's sensitive enough to respond to tiny changes in my balance or seat. Other times...well, yeah, I like riding him in a curb bit. And he may still ignore it. I know from experience that pulling as hard as I can on a Terrible Tom Thumb won't get him to raise his head if there is one more nibble of grass he wants....

 

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I will deal with it if it goes wrong, but I should enjoy the joy it is bringing me now.

Exactly! We need to find that balance point between being aware bad things might happen (and have a Plan B or a Plan H if it does) while being at least equally aware of the good that can come. And balance is a process, not an end point. We balance in the present and must adjust constantly as the future changes. It is like VS Littauer's comment about riding, something to the effect that 'I can teach anyone perfect balance on a horse who isn't moving, but once the horse moves.....'

 

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Hope you don't mind but I bookmarked the last post for future reference. Great video. Impressive job done by your husband, too! It is VERY much like Bandit his first two years with me. Amazingly so. And if I start riding Bandit out more along paved roads and more in neighborhoods, I expect him to be more like that again. The hoppy, twisty, toothy thing is what Bandit is like - maybe at 80% of what Hero does. And likewise....Bandit needs a rider to respond with confidence and even control. He wants to know someone is there who will deal with things, including him. Different from Mia, IIRC.

 

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Trooper liked working sheep and hated working cattle. Hated it to the point that when loaned to a ranch on condition he NOT work cattle, when they tried to make him anyways, he ended up with bloody holes in his side - still without working cattle. A forum member named Cherie has a sticky posted on how to train a trail horse. I wrote her a couple of private messages asking about Mia. She told me they were selective in what horses they bought, and that her approach to training a trail horse wouldn't work with Mia. From her ranch perspective, a horse like Mia wasn't worth the time it would take to get her usable - not that she was recommending I get rid of Mia, just that her ranch couldn't afford the time.

The ranch Trooper came from thought Mia's issues could be solved but that it would take a bunch of 50-100 mile days to get her working right. Maybe that was true (or not), but I wasn't up to it. My life long friend laughed when I told him and said at his age, he wouldn't be up to it either.

I think environment plays a huge role because horses will learn an environment and then behave fine - but that doesn't mean one could drop them into downtown NYC and have a good ride. I also think a huge part is how unnatural a certain environment is. Mia, bless her heart, was USUALLY good once we were in the desert and 1/4 mile or more from the nearest road. Bandit likewise. If I'm going to start riding him more in neighborhoods, we'll face some challenges until his experience starts to build up. His relay racing days left him pretty solid with trucks, trailers, big vehicles - but he'll get nervous over a tricycle. Handles a semi better than a tricycle! Because that is what he experienced when young.

The ranch Trooper came from had a good policy, I think. They used to raise their own horses and then have the foal accompany mama when mama started working sheep - following the dam thru forests, mountainsides, open desert, etc. By the time the foal was ready to be ridden, it had been exposed to all the normal work environments needed by the ranch.

I see no reason to expect Bandit to put his trust in me. He doesn't trust ANY horse's judgment. He only trusts his own. He's learned to listen to me, but not to automatically assume I know all - because he has also learned he can smell and hear things I cannot. So it is perfectly reasonable for him not to trust me too far.