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A Rascal and a Hero

65527 Views 1540 Replies 37 Participants Last post by  knightrider
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My previous journal was called "Why I Gotta Trot." It was getting insanely long, so I decided to begin a new one with a new phase in my horse life.

This is Hero in May of 2018 shortly after I first ended up with him. He had recently undergone a name change from Rascal to Hero.

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Hero was an off track TB who was raced at 5 several times, then retired. He ended up at a rescue, where he was rehomed three times and returned. My friend was told this was because he was still green (he was 9 years old by then), and no one had taken the time to work with him. Later I was to find out that one of the people who returned him to the rescue was a horse trainer.

My friend took him, hoping to give him some experience and then her beginner boyfriend would have a horse to ride. Unfortunately, Hero turned out to be too much horse for her boyfriend. I was the one who had put most of the riding on him in the five months she owned him, so she ended up giving him to me. I knew by then he had "issues," but had grown attached.

This is Hero more recently:
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Here is a timeline of how things have changed between when I first met him in October of 2017 until now.

Oct 26, 2017-Feb 22, 2018:

My friend adopts Rascal. We think of him as being a green horse. Her beginner boyfriend get tossed off right away a couple of times. I mostly ride him, keeping things calm for his new owner. At first Rascal seems fairly calm - overwhelmed, and somewhat shut down. When we begin taking him out more, he starts spooking more and begins to buck at times.

He cannot really pick up canter, which I chalk up to him being green. On the lunge he canters disunited. The vet does a check, does not find anything really wrong. He does not seem to like bits but finally we try an mullen mouth Kimberwicke, which he seems to prefer.

Feb 22, 2018-June 1 2018:

I begin to notice there is more than a green horse here. I suspect serious physical issues. I wonder about SI joint damage. He acts like he has been treated like a machine. He is tense when handled and defensive. On April 20, it is decided he will not be a good match for his beginner owner. I take over ownership, knowing there may be some physical problems as well as behavioral ones, but I have grown attached. He begins to get better at understanding cues and after lots of rides responds well, although he still is spooky and bucks a lot.

June 1, 2018-August 28th, 2018:

A pattern is emerging. I notice that I can predict when he will buck, hop or kick out. He has issues especially in deep footing and going down hills. From online information, I decide he may have locking stifles. Trimming his hind hooves based on that idea seems to help a bit. The vet diagnoses him on July 18 with Intermittent Upward Fixation of Patellas. He is started on Equioxx. By the end of July, he is having rides with less bucking and even sometimes no bucking.

August 28th, 2018-Nov 21, 2018:

The trial of Equioxx is over. More riding and rehab including massage and stretching. At times he seems better, but has serious toe wear on hinds even though using boots for riding. Gradually seems to lose strength again in hind end despite exercise.

Nov 21st, 2018- March 24, 2019:

Restarted on Equioxx. I see Hero gallop for the first time on the lunge line. Suddenly, he begins using his hind end more and starts rearing under saddle. Apparently he would always have liked to rear, but was not strong enough. On Dec. 8th he gets stifles injected. By the end of December he does not seem to mind being brushed all over with a soft brush, his canter is getting stronger and there is less bucking.

Hero continues to improve and have better and better days. By spring he seems to push off with hinds in the trot with some spring and less toe drag. On the 24th of March I note in my journal “Best Ride Ever.”

March 24, 2019-Jan 2020: Many good rides. Now it seems any residual bucking and behavioral issues relate to learned behavior rather than reaction to pain. If upset or nervous, he will throw in a buck or hop. Now they are basically his “spook.” On occasion if the footing is bad or we slip on a hill, I can tell his stifles do slip and he gives a buck or kick.
By July I feel I know Hero and his reactions, and can give a reprimand if he gets too worked up, and he will settle things down again. He begins to calm down very fast, within seconds after getting upset.

Jan 2020- Aug 2020: Expressiveness has come down in intensity. He does not feel the need to displace nerves onto the handler with snapping teeth or barging, and if I brush too hard or do something he dislikes, he does not feel he has to pin his ears, glare or show over the top body language. I can tell we are communicating much better and that he has crossed another threshold of trust, really believing it is safe to go out with me unless something very scary shows up.

August 2020- present: Continuing to build a relationship, it is starting to feel like we are real partners. I’ve learned that Hero is more fearful when out alone than I realized, similar to how Amore used to be. Since he tends to stop and look more often than prance and snort, I thought he was braver than he really was. In a new environment it is easier to see. This year I am working on gradually improving on his bravery with frequent rides around a 2.5 mile route by himself.
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There is a discussion on another thread about a horse that is an explosive fear reactor like Amore was, that a trainer is working with. I wanted to save my comment here so I can remember it for the future, for working with other horses like this:

"It is a good concept. Warwick Schiller calls it "too many rabbits." I think whether you call it trigger stacking, a worry cup, or too many rabbits, it's important to understand. But I don't think the solution is desensitizing to rabbits or various triggers. As this article says, it's teaching the horse to calm down after one "rabbit," or one worry. To teach the horse that whatever scares him, whether it is rabbits, saddles, horse trailers, etc, he can calm himself quickly and not get to the point of exploding.
Along for the ride: How Much Worry Can Your Horse Handle? - Warwick Schiller

If this horse truly did not show any sign of worry until the explosion, then the trainer may not know she is thinking about rabbits. That is not common, but was the way my mare was. In that case, you can't even start with the rabbits, but you have to begin with finding calm after the big explosion faster, and work your way all the way back to the rabbits.
If the horse seems to be handling things fine, walking calmly, not snorting or tensing up, etc, then all you can do is assume there are no rabbits. But then boom, the explosion. So there were rabbits but the horse wasn't telling you about them.

Improvement is getting to the point where the horse spooks in a more reasonable fashion, and begins to tell you she is thinking about rabbits. Unfortunately, this means for some horses they have to show you this fear reaction a few times to learn not to do it, otherwise it will be always lurking there waiting to happen.

It's not always that horses are taught to be shut down and not show signs of fear. It seems to be a natural although more rare type of response that the freeze/flight or fight response begins with the horse having a sort of "freeze" response externally, not showing fear until they suddenly blow up. It would be beneficial in nature, if a horse was being stalked by an animal, to show no signs of fear at all until suddenly reacting violently."

In my opinion, it's actually quite a bit better to have a horse that actively shows signs of anxiety rather than hides it until reaching the explosion point. Better to have them kicking and biting with nerves than to appear calm and then suddenly blow up. That is how I feel after working with both kinds. Otherwise you simply cannot avoid the big explosion, but you have to go there in order to help the horse stop doing it.

My friend's horse Brave is a horse that shows no signs at all of fear until suddenly he reacts. He was considered difficult to train, but my friend worked with him very slowly and painstakingly over a long period of time, always ponying him with a very courageous horse and building him up little by little. Because of this she only had to deal with him having serious reactions several times, and by the time he had them they were toned down from what they would have been if he had been truly in a panic state.

I was there once when he flung her off, and he was just standing there and then turned into a whirling dervish and she simply and immediately flew out of his vortex. However, he was able to calm quickly and those responses have lessened even more over time. When I was first riding him it was to help with his initial rides outside of an arena. His first times trotting and cantering with a rider outside, etc. He spooked once or twice and I realized this was a scary horse, because there was no way to tell he felt any worry. Still, the way my friend worked him helped put miles on him without serious issues, and he gets more solid all the time.
One of the horses I'm riding right now has a history of being an explosive spooker and a huge worrier. She gets herself worked up into a big panic over little things and then it's not a matter of if but when she will snap.

For her, and some other horses I've rode, it's a confidence thing. Whether it's that she doesn't have the confidence to go and be brave on her own or she doesn't have the confidence in me and what I'm asking, the solution was the same. If I rode her like I had full confidence in her, and nothing we were facing was anything to get worried about (they definitely know when you are waiting for them to spook at something), she learned to go through stuff confidently.

With her previous owner, she was scared of ropes to the point she had stopped trying to rope off of her, so I messed around with her for a few minutes and then confidently went ahead and roped calves with her because I knew she was capable as the guy who started her did some roping with her. And she was calm, steady and acted like a seasoned pro. Didn't do a single thing wrong.

I've approached a lot of other obstacles with her the same way, just consciously trying to not make a big deal out of things. It's like she thinks that if I'm not concerned or nervous about a thing, then she doesn't need to be either. I've rode her through forestry looking for yearling steers in the middle of hunting season (quads, people everywhere, hunting camps, shooting - I wore hi vis for sure!), and her only spook was at a fallen tree she stepped on under the snow and the branches jumped out of the snow 15 feet away. And even so she just jumped and planted her feet and blew at it.

The real trick is acting like everything is fine and it's nothing to worry about but still being ready for a spook lol!
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I've seen no correlation at all between my confidence and my horse's. It apparently works for some horses. But I've been on some massive spooks - and flat out bolts - that started with me feeling utterly confident.
I didn't explain very well. It's not the same confidence that you feel when riding a good horse that you trust. It's saying "I am confident that this is not going to be a problem for you" or "I am confident that you know how to handle this because we've done it before/I've prepared you"

The mare I was talking about knew that her previous owner didn't trust her one bit, and they couldn't manage to get along because of it. She just needed that little vote of confidence.

For some reason, my horses have always spooked at big rocks, and I've learned that if I'm riding by a big scary rock and don't even acknowledge it myself, sure my horse (especially a young one) is going to side step and wiggle around and blow at it, and it might do that 3 or 4 times that day or that week. But they seem to figure out that if you arent making a big production out of things like that, that it's nothing to worry about.

I think that sometimes we create more anxiety and worry by always making a big deal out of spooky things - making them take a step closer, reward, another step, reward, some bouncing around and another step or a sniff, reward, we've all done it. I think horses learn to anticipate and get anxious about the whole ordeal of us trying to convince them to get closer to the spooky thing rather than the spooky thing being spooky.
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How long have you had Bandit? How old is he?
There comes a point where explosive spooking and bolting is just plain unacceptable, even if it's something new or "justifiable", but that is just my opinion. Once a horse gets enough miles on them, like Penny who is 8 and has been lots of places and seen a lot of stuff, bolting and big spooks are just out of the question. She's old enough and broke enough now that she should be thinking before reacting. She can blow at stuff and side step and ask questions, but potentially dangerous spooks are a thing of the past.

Even if it's things that would justify a big spook, like chasing up a bear right in front of us or bulls fighting or being chased by a cow. She knows from her real life experience that she can keep herself safe without bolting or big reactions, even in seriously dangerous situations. I think that's what makes a horse into a reliable and enjoyable mount.

We had one cow that was so nasty, my SO had her roped and it was all he could do to just slow her down (he had the cow roped deep so didn't have a lot of control) a little while she chased my horse and I a quarter mile at a run all the way into the corral. I can assure you that Penny was way more okay with the situation than I was.
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Had him since 2015. Prior to that, he was frequently raced in relay races, running 10-15 mile legs on the Navajo Nation. He's 12-13 now.

So...if a horse can be ridden in rural Oklahoma, the same horse ought to be able to face NYC without reacting? Because he's learned to trust his rider?
Within reason, yes. I can take Penny to a busy branding pen, out on her own be it in the hills here or flats to the east, I can pony colts off of her in any situation, I can take her to town along as a buddy for my barrel horse, and expect her to be solid and level headed in every situation that I'm likely to get her into.
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I can see where you are coming from when saying to lean forward to ride defensively, but there is a lot more to it.
When I suspect things are going to go sideways (figuratively or literally), I want to crunch my abs, tuck my pelvis forward and sit square and then go from there on how I'm going to stay in the middle. Oftentimes, it does mean bringing the shoulders forward if Im going to be grabbing my rope as an oh sheet handle.
But, if things are going to get wild, you have a better chance if you ride shoulders back. I've been sent out the front door enough times to learn that lesson.
Best visual I have is turning a barrel.
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I spanked Cashman yesterday. First I was off of him, so I didn’t get after him more than yelling when he kicked a baby calf for no good reason. Then he kicked at another while I was on him and I wapped him with the romal. I know he gets cranky, but he can’t be mean to little babies.
Lol! I didn't know what I was missing before I started riding with a quirt or romal! The slap of the popper on a shoulder or hip that needs to move over is way more effective that having to get after them with a spur. We have lots of bush where we are and I'm not as cool as my SO who packs a bull whip to make noise but my quirt slapping on my leg does a great job of spooking cows out of the trees!

Also, I've had little baby calves think my horses are mom when I'm out checking, so that's always entertaining! And almost too cute to handle 🥰
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@Knave I think it just depends on the horse whether they will allow a calf to get all up in their business or not. I've thankfully always had the good ones that tolerate calves in the legs and under their bellies, which is really something because Penny is pure evil towards bigger bovines.
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When we get help (often just one friend that comes) with cows, there is up to 7 or 8 working dogs involved and it's really interesting how the horses know what dogs are "theirs". Our 4 dogs can literally run through my horses legs while we are working and none of them pay any mind and try not to step on a dog, but if a strange dog comes too close, my horses aren't very keen about it. I don't think they would boot a dog that runs by too close but they definitely watch the strange dog more closely. In the pasture, my horses don't like the dogs, some of the horses will even chase the dogs out! It's just really neat seeing how they seem to develop a working relationship with each other.
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Agree 150% with these last 2 posts!

Horses are unbelievably forgiving, I started the Squigg when I was 13 or so. 13. Did all of her training myself and almost always rode by myself. I couldn't count the number of mistakes I made with her. But, I fumbled and struggled and cried a lot and we made it.

A horse isn't going to hate a person for having poor timing with a reward a few times or spanking his butt with a lead rope, and I agree, I think someone who doesn't have a lot of experience making mistakes and then fixing them may not understand just how much a horse will forgive. I think that stems from lots of people never talking about where they went wrong or what mistakes they made, or the times they've betrayed the horse, they only talk about the successful times.

As for body language, I've lately been trying to see how much I can accomplish with how little. If I simply pick up my hand to give direction, does the horse change her posture in preparation to be asked to move? If they are trotting in the roundpen, how small of a movement will they pick up on to stop or change direction?

If you're always screaming at the horse with your cues and body language when you don't need to, then it's going to be hard to make the transition to just speak quietly with your body language.

Just a couple small thoughts to add!
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Holy my goodness good for you for sticking with that horse! He's got a lot of attitude doesn't he? Good for you for sharing the other side of things that we all have been through.

I think some of the kicking must be a reaction to him getting "stuck" and knowing he shouldn't try to run off but also doesn't know or want to walk with you?

Personally, I have different expectations on my horses when we go to new places. It's fairly often that we go to new places to help brand, help someone move cows, gather, or sort out strays/pairs. Usually the horses are thrown in the trailer saddled and then eventually rattled down a rough trail and then we head off at a trot most times. I don't have room to mess around with my horse being on edge cause it's a new place. This is how things are from the time I think they are broke enough to use for such things. Usually, my horses work better away from home anyways.
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Have you ended up with horses that weren't suitable for your work, or do you just select them carefully in the first place? Have you run into a horse that was too afraid of cows to do the work? Several people on the forum have mentioned having horses that would not get over a fear of cows.

I'm sure it is also very helpful to raise a horse in the environment where they are expected to work, and then start using them in that environment too. Something that is interesting about Hero is that he's pretty easy about working in an environment that is asphalt, vehicles and people, which is similar to the track. But he's still pretty nervous about the woods and "nature."
No, I haven't encountered that yet. I usually buy horses under the age of 2, so they have seen a lot of the sights by the time I'm riding them. I've had horses unsure about getting in close quarters with cows, yep, but they learn to enjoy sorting or pushing cows and get over it. Penny used to be "scared" of cows in certain situations (running toward her general direction) but now she just pins her ears and wants to eat em. 😉
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I've loaded lots of animals (cows and horses) just backed up to whatever gate was available. Takes a little patience and a flag but I've never been unable to load something that way.

Good luck!
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@gottatrot

What happened to you is exactly why I avoid tying to work on feet 😬
Since my accident last year, I'm extra aware of things that can go wrong and I don't want to be under a horse if something spooks it and it pulls back. These days, I always drape the lead over their wither on the same side I'm working on.
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I agree with @Knave
If the pen is safe with no conceivable ways for the horse to get hung up on something it might rub on, I've even left a short lead tied on to the halter for a few days. Yeah the horse might step on it when they have their head down, but then they learn to give to the pressure and are better set up to deal with stepping on the lead or even a rein in the future. This was done in a very safe pen or round pen, on the property where I was living so I had eyes on the horse most of the day.

I'm not sure that I would feel super ok about turning a horse out with other horses with a halter on.
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@gottatrot
So sorry for the loss of your beautiful little mare ❤
You were so blessed to have so many great years with her
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@gottatrot
We have a bridge over the creek between the house we live in and the barn yard. I have 3 horses electric fence by the house here so if I need to do something over at the barnyard, I've got to cross that bridge.

Martha, who spooks at most things, crosses the bridge with hardly a second thought. But Penny, who is pretty reliable and unflappable these days, is absolutely convinced that she cannot be rode over the bridge. I can lead her over without hesitation on her part, but there's no riding her over most days. If she's comfortable being led over the bridge, that's fine with me. Some people would say it's bad to let her "get away" with refusing but that horse has trucked us over and through stuff that most people wouldn't dare try, if she says she doesn't want to be rode over that darn bridge, we can compromise!
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