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A Rascal and a Hero

65500 Views 1540 Replies 37 Participants Last post by  knightrider
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My previous journal was called "Why I Gotta Trot." It was getting insanely long, so I decided to begin a new one with a new phase in my horse life.

This is Hero in May of 2018 shortly after I first ended up with him. He had recently undergone a name change from Rascal to Hero.

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Hero was an off track TB who was raced at 5 several times, then retired. He ended up at a rescue, where he was rehomed three times and returned. My friend was told this was because he was still green (he was 9 years old by then), and no one had taken the time to work with him. Later I was to find out that one of the people who returned him to the rescue was a horse trainer.

My friend took him, hoping to give him some experience and then her beginner boyfriend would have a horse to ride. Unfortunately, Hero turned out to be too much horse for her boyfriend. I was the one who had put most of the riding on him in the five months she owned him, so she ended up giving him to me. I knew by then he had "issues," but had grown attached.

This is Hero more recently:
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Here is a timeline of how things have changed between when I first met him in October of 2017 until now.

Oct 26, 2017-Feb 22, 2018:

My friend adopts Rascal. We think of him as being a green horse. Her beginner boyfriend get tossed off right away a couple of times. I mostly ride him, keeping things calm for his new owner. At first Rascal seems fairly calm - overwhelmed, and somewhat shut down. When we begin taking him out more, he starts spooking more and begins to buck at times.

He cannot really pick up canter, which I chalk up to him being green. On the lunge he canters disunited. The vet does a check, does not find anything really wrong. He does not seem to like bits but finally we try an mullen mouth Kimberwicke, which he seems to prefer.

Feb 22, 2018-June 1 2018:

I begin to notice there is more than a green horse here. I suspect serious physical issues. I wonder about SI joint damage. He acts like he has been treated like a machine. He is tense when handled and defensive. On April 20, it is decided he will not be a good match for his beginner owner. I take over ownership, knowing there may be some physical problems as well as behavioral ones, but I have grown attached. He begins to get better at understanding cues and after lots of rides responds well, although he still is spooky and bucks a lot.

June 1, 2018-August 28th, 2018:

A pattern is emerging. I notice that I can predict when he will buck, hop or kick out. He has issues especially in deep footing and going down hills. From online information, I decide he may have locking stifles. Trimming his hind hooves based on that idea seems to help a bit. The vet diagnoses him on July 18 with Intermittent Upward Fixation of Patellas. He is started on Equioxx. By the end of July, he is having rides with less bucking and even sometimes no bucking.

August 28th, 2018-Nov 21, 2018:

The trial of Equioxx is over. More riding and rehab including massage and stretching. At times he seems better, but has serious toe wear on hinds even though using boots for riding. Gradually seems to lose strength again in hind end despite exercise.

Nov 21st, 2018- March 24, 2019:

Restarted on Equioxx. I see Hero gallop for the first time on the lunge line. Suddenly, he begins using his hind end more and starts rearing under saddle. Apparently he would always have liked to rear, but was not strong enough. On Dec. 8th he gets stifles injected. By the end of December he does not seem to mind being brushed all over with a soft brush, his canter is getting stronger and there is less bucking.

Hero continues to improve and have better and better days. By spring he seems to push off with hinds in the trot with some spring and less toe drag. On the 24th of March I note in my journal “Best Ride Ever.”

March 24, 2019-Jan 2020: Many good rides. Now it seems any residual bucking and behavioral issues relate to learned behavior rather than reaction to pain. If upset or nervous, he will throw in a buck or hop. Now they are basically his “spook.” On occasion if the footing is bad or we slip on a hill, I can tell his stifles do slip and he gives a buck or kick.
By July I feel I know Hero and his reactions, and can give a reprimand if he gets too worked up, and he will settle things down again. He begins to calm down very fast, within seconds after getting upset.

Jan 2020- Aug 2020: Expressiveness has come down in intensity. He does not feel the need to displace nerves onto the handler with snapping teeth or barging, and if I brush too hard or do something he dislikes, he does not feel he has to pin his ears, glare or show over the top body language. I can tell we are communicating much better and that he has crossed another threshold of trust, really believing it is safe to go out with me unless something very scary shows up.

August 2020- present: Continuing to build a relationship, it is starting to feel like we are real partners. I’ve learned that Hero is more fearful when out alone than I realized, similar to how Amore used to be. Since he tends to stop and look more often than prance and snort, I thought he was braver than he really was. In a new environment it is easier to see. This year I am working on gradually improving on his bravery with frequent rides around a 2.5 mile route by himself.
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Lol! That’s one I’ll have to tell my husband. He threatened a dentist that if he hurt him he would return the favor. I probably wouldn’t, but I’m pretty held back with humans.

He would lose his temper if a horse kicked at him hard without good reason, but not in the case of Hero. Especially considering he kicked softly. When something hurts they are given a bit of a pass.

I spanked Cashman yesterday. First I was off of him, so I didn’t get after him more than yelling when he kicked a baby calf for no good reason. Then he kicked at another while I was on him and I wapped him with the romal. I know he gets cranky, but he can’t be mean to little babies.

ETA- I laughed about the shooting up. I was thinking that no one in my town has ever done that, but maybe I am naive... our abscesses are few and far between. I think everyone just would drain their own though. Lol
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I got behind on your journal @gottatrot and am just now reading about the abscess. I have never seen one where you poke it and it empties like that- sounds very dramatic! I hope Hero heals up quickly.
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I spanked Cashman yesterday. First I was off of him, so I didn’t get after him more than yelling when he kicked a baby calf for no good reason. Then he kicked at another while I was on him and I wapped him with the romal. I know he gets cranky, but he can’t be mean to little babies.
Lol! I didn't know what I was missing before I started riding with a quirt or romal! The slap of the popper on a shoulder or hip that needs to move over is way more effective that having to get after them with a spur. We have lots of bush where we are and I'm not as cool as my SO who packs a bull whip to make noise but my quirt slapping on my leg does a great job of spooking cows out of the trees!

Also, I've had little baby calves think my horses are mom when I'm out checking, so that's always entertaining! And almost too cute to handle 🥰
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I always think it’s cute too @QHriderKE . That’s why I get so irritated when horses aren’t kind to them. To be honest, I don’t think I’ve ridden a horse that would tolerate it! Last year I was at a neighbor’s branding and a little guy mothered up to Cash. I knew he might kick a calf, so I was literally running away from this baby all over. Everyone was laughing at me when I was begging someone to come and take him from me. Hahahahaha

(I couldn’t just jump off and pick him up because it was kind of chaotic, and Cashman isn’t above running someone over when things go wrong.)

ETA- Lady is my grandpa’s old mare. She’s at the sheds where we take the heifer calves when we wean. Last year this heifer weanling was in with her for a bit and went to sucking the mare. It was cute and funny and I don’t think the old mare minded the company and love. Lol
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@Knave I think it just depends on the horse whether they will allow a calf to get all up in their business or not. I've thankfully always had the good ones that tolerate calves in the legs and under their bellies, which is really something because Penny is pure evil towards bigger bovines.
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Aww that video was so cute!! That's the way I am when tiny dogs try chasing the horses on the beach. I'm like, don't step on him, don't kick him, somebody grab him...
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When we get help (often just one friend that comes) with cows, there is up to 7 or 8 working dogs involved and it's really interesting how the horses know what dogs are "theirs". Our 4 dogs can literally run through my horses legs while we are working and none of them pay any mind and try not to step on a dog, but if a strange dog comes too close, my horses aren't very keen about it. I don't think they would boot a dog that runs by too close but they definitely watch the strange dog more closely. In the pasture, my horses don't like the dogs, some of the horses will even chase the dogs out! It's just really neat seeing how they seem to develop a working relationship with each other.
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The barn owner did not notice Hero favoring his leg while I was away. Today I was pleased to find a very shallow and open depression next to the bar. It did not seal off again after draining the last time. The area was very tender still, and the new sole underneath is soft.

Today Hero told me a few times that he wanted to kick me when I cleaned the area, hosed the sole and applied more betadine. But he didn't do it when I told him not to. He is quite funny. He pulls up his leg and flexes it toward me. "Can I kick you?" I say "No." Verbally, just the word. Then he doesn't do it.

Horses are so amazing. They truly have a desire to please us and try hard to find out what we want. They do this even when they have other drives such as self-preservation competing against it.

This is really the only reason we are able to successfully use horses for so many things. They do a great deal of the work for us, by meeting us in the middle. Horses will do many things for us without any other incentive than their good will, even without reward or punishment. Gotta love 'em.
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Very true statement!
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I am finally catching up! I saw this on the book of faces the other day and it seemed appropriate to put here:

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I did laugh very hard at it.. but at the same time, it's rather depressing that its so true. I am another than enjoys a reasonable debate where emotion is not involved. It can be a great way to learn.
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I am finally catching up! I saw this on the book of faces the other day and it seemed appropriate to put here:

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I did laugh very hard at it.. but at the same time, it's rather depressing that its so true. I am another than enjoys a reasonable debate where emotion is not involved. It can be a great way to learn.
OMG That made me crack up. Freaking facts right there. I almost never comment on anything horse related on facebook. The loudest people usually have minimal experience but think their way is the only one right and true way and I'm like pull your head out of your butt and realize there are many "right" ways. You adjust to the horse and what works for the horse, not ideology. Sometimes the ideology just doesn't suit the horse. You have to work with what is in front of you, not a textbook.

I want to understand why the people who know the least are the most obnoxious and rude, while people who are informed usually stay quiet and dont get involved. I wish there was more reasonable debate but most people in turns into an ugly emotion fueled argument of ego fanning, rather than getting down to brass tax and focusing on what is substantial and real.

For me anymore, I just go to the experts I know when I need advice, help or suggestions.
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I did laugh very hard at it.. but at the same time, it's rather depressing that its so true. I am another than enjoys a reasonable debate where emotion is not involved. It can be a great way to learn.
OK, that just killed me!!!
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Just wanted to say I finished your Training Problem Horses and loved it so much. I wish every new horse owner would read it. Such a well-written, down to earth, easy to read book. I hated for it to end. By the way, are you working on another one????? Hope so!!!!
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I’m thinking I didn’t know about Training Problem Horses... I will have to look and see if I’ve read it.
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Okay, I finally got the book! I had to pay $1.27 for it, which has to be the cheapest I've ever paid for a book before lol! I'm totally gonna read the whole thing, it looks so good!
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Thanks, @knightrider and @AbbySmith! I'm always working on a book, LOL. Writing is very addictive.

This video is not super clear and my finger got on part of it, but I thought it was funny because Hero was attempting to be an Arabian today. Arabs look graceful with their tails held high, but he just looks awkward. At one point he spun back on his right hind, so apparently the old abscess area is not very sore anymore. I still plan to give him at least another week before officially working him on it. I just looked at it today and applied thrush medicine, but didn't poke.

I didn't want Hero walking on the gravel with his tender hoof, so put boots on for the turnout, risking they might come off in the wet field. I was very pleased when I went back to bring the horses in to see them standing at the far edge of the field, and Hero still had all his boots on. So I called, "Amoreeee," which for some reason caused Amore to spin and come galloping across the field, which Hero immediately copied. While galloping, he stepped in guck over his pasterns and I saw two boots get sucked off. Oh well, at least I saw where they went so it was easy to retrieve them and put them back on. One Renegade, one Scoot with mud straps on. Silly boy.

The barn owner said that a delivery man had asked if Amore was just a colt. She told him Amore was a thirty year old colt. She also said that Hero makes her laugh because he doesn't make any faces or bother about her putting his feed out in the mornings. But if she doesn't leave and stands in the shed talking to him, he bares his teeth at her. She said it cracks her up, because she thinks he is saying, "Shut up, I'm trying to eat." She said she's fed a lot of horses over the years, but Hero is the only one who has ever told her to shut up.
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Lol, that’s funny. He did almost look graceful when he spun away. It is funny that he is that big compared to her though. It reminds me of Cash next to the others.
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I'm musing over another thread that turned sour. Other than my journal, when posting on the forum, I make every attempt to write in such a way that a person could read in monotone and it would sound appropriate. Meaning, no emotion in the words. I really try not to be offensive, or personal.

It brought up something, however, which I don't think I've discussed in my journal. Basically the mental journey I traveled to get where I am regarding how harsh or gentle to be with horses.

When I first was around horses as a child, I was taught by a relative who presented me with a dichotomy. She believed in being extremely gentle under saddle, and used voice commands rather than rein or leg cues. When riding her horses, she would explain that you should only barely touch the reins when turning, and not use them at all for changing gaits or slowing the horse. She also did not touch a horse with her legs below the knee. Oddly, she treated horses differently on the ground, and would literally kick a horse in the stomach at times. As a child and teen, I agreed with the gentle treatment and disagreed with the rough.

For a few years I was only around gentle, well trained horses, which meant correction did not really come up. When I finally began taking serious lessons and was around horses a lot more in my late teens and early twenties, many of those I was around presented me with rougher treatment of horses than I was used to. Especially those involved in serious showing would use a "whatever works" method, and be very harsh with horses in order to get them to comply. Some of the less harsh, "gray" areas, I thought at first might be fine, such as tying a horse's head in one direction as they lunged, in order to develop muscles, or twitching them in order to get things done, but soon I decided this was not a good or kind way to work with horses.

After that, there was a period of time where this poor treatment of horses left me with a bad feeling and I looked into going as far away from harsh methods as possible. This was just before the Parelli movement became very popular, and not many had heard of using hoof boots or riding bitless, except in a bosal or western sidepull. I began hearing of those who were promoting more natural and positive methods of working with horses, and for a time I went "all in," to see how I felt about it.

Not many have heard of Alexander Nevzorov, but I actually joined his forum and discussed what I consider now to be a very extreme view of using horses. Here is a quote from his website:
NHE news
No” simply means “no.” It doesn’t mean “try again.” It doesn’t mean that the horse just doesn’t get it, or that he’ll learn it’s not a big deal, or that he’s being difficult or naughty, or that he will be okay with it in the end. If this sounds like quotes from sex offender education it does for a good reason. There are a lot of parallels when one is forcing oneself on another.
No” means the freedom of choice for any reason or no reason whatsoever. It means that if he doesn’t want to stay with you he’s not going to be chased. It means that if he doesn’t want to be touched (groomed, hosed off, etc.) he won’t be. It means that if he’s not engaged in whatever you might think is fun he doesn’t need to participate. It means that his own understanding of what’s better for him at the moment is respected. And if he doesn’t have this essential right then he’s never going to come to you because he’s deprived of the very essence of what it takes to connect, to make friends, to build trust. It also means that you can make him do what you want but you cannot make him like you. That he can only do on his own accord and not because you have a notion of what he’s supposed and not supposed to do or feel in response to your actions, care, love, or tokens of affection.

In this view of horsemanship, riding a horse for any sport is considered abuse. Using treats is mental coercion. I believe the rule was that you could sit on a horse without a saddle for about fifteen or twenty minutes, and anything more than that was more than a horse could tolerate without being aversive.

Once I decided that the Nevzorov ideals were unnecessarily rigid, and began hearing of other facets of natural horsemanship, I read many books and went to some clinics, trying to figure out better ways. Parelli's ideas were not better received by many horses, I soon realized, and ended up dealing with some horses that had become nervous and developed problems with handling due to people using those methods.

I stopped putting shoes on my horses, and tried many bitless options. I've ridden in nearly every bitless bridle available, on a variety of horses. I believe I have a good working knowledge of their positive aspects, as well as their limitations. I've used at least four brands of treeless saddles, and used many styles of hoof boots.

Being a somewhat brave or crazy person, I literally did try seeing how very hot horses might do when ridden out in spooky places in a sidepull. I honestly believe many who think things will be fine have not actually put themselves out there and tried it, which I actually have. I've done things like gallop horses in equipment that was far too gentle for them to respond to, and when I say what might happen, it's because I've tried it to see what does.

My point with all of this is that everyone has a journey to decide how they want to work with horses. Those who do not use the most gentle methods available may have already experimented with those methods and come around full circle to deciding what is kind and fair versus too harsh. It is a bit simplistic to look at people where they are and decide it is from lack of understanding that there are better ways to do things.

My ideal is to understand a variety of methods, but I've been disillusioned too many times from thinking that one trainer, one guru, or one method can have all the answers. That is why I approach every training idea, old or new, with some healthy skepticism. Anything worth looking into can and should be dissected, evaluated, and criticized to see if it is worth experimenting with. Although I may not have studied every training method or style down to the gritty details, that does not mean this is due to ignorant bias, or a desire to hold onto what I feel more secure with. I am willing to change methods, and frequently do adjust what I am doing with horses. There does need to be good evidence, however, to convince me it is worth doing so.
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The article the "gone bad thread" started with essentially said that while aversive training could get good looking results, maybe better than what some experienced using only positive reinforcement, that was only because the people using it hadn't learned how to TRULY understand and work with a horse:

"We need to recognize first that these are not the horses’ problem, this is something caused by the person. The person handling the horse may be better at using R- or not willing to take the time to retrain known R- behaviors or to retrain new, gentler tools so then the horse doesn’t understand these new tools or forms of communication. So the horse seems to prefer the “devil they know”, but in truth they just don’t know what gentler tools mean or how R+ could be wonderful if done right."


"But our pleasurable experiences, riding, agility, driving, or any sort of training that is not necessary to the horse’s wellbeing, it would be unkind to mix aversives into the scenario."


So the writer framed their argument in terms of positive works better and anyone who disagrees just isn't good enough or experienced enough or hasn't REALLY tried it. And if that means you can never ride a horse, that is OK. Because you are there to make the horse happy, while the horse has no "need" to provide you with anything. And while that might make the writer happy, it isn't real. It is expensive to keep horses and very few would be willing to pay for decades for a horse who doesn't have to give anything back except companionship. And maybe not that, since plenty of horses just aren't that thrilled by humans!

In many places, a horse who is never ridden is going to be in poor shape, just as a human who never gets exercise is. My three are out of shape right now because they aren't being ridden enough.

But it is fundamentally unfair to frame an argument in such a way that anyone who has a different experience disagrees because they are stupid, ignorant or just plain mean. I can point to a lot of horses, including my own, who seem very happy even though I expect things out of them. But the writer frames the argument so that merely means I don't really know my horses - even after up to 12 years with them! While the writer, who hasn't even met my horses, knows the real truth! Framed that way, no honest discussion can follow. To disagree is to be inferior at best and possibly malicious as well.
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Again, I'm feeling like the constant closing of threads and name-calling that leads to that is a really frustrating example of how "we" (the global we) can't engage in thoughtful debate and discussion. Every closed thread just reinforces the idea that if you disagree and make a counter-argument, it's bad and scary and impolite and has to stop. Talk about positive reinforcement :rolleyes:

I personally enjoy reading threads when people are sharing their previous experiences about trying things, failing or succeeding (or failing AND succeeding when the same method is used with different horses), but I dislike blind adherence to any single perspective. Since I haven't been able to ride for a month now because of the weather, I'm reading these threads and thinking through scenarios of what Fizz might do if I tried to use x, y, or z strategies that I'm reading about on these threads in our own, real-life sticky situations (passing cows, riding away from home down the hill of despair, rating our speed when riding with our friend Coalie). I have some hypotheses about what she will do, and can't wait to test them out. My point is that these "contentious" threads, and the examples- both theoretical and practical- are making me really think about my own horse and approach, which is far more interesting than threads by random teens that don't have horses asking about how to convince their parents to let them get one...But those threads are allowed, even though the educational value is zero.
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