[horseluvr2524]

The bolding is mine.

My question on the original thread for this was: It looked to me like the horse was going to sleep/ deprived of oxygen, was the horse doped? Heart problems? So the 'rushing' 'lurching' the horse was kicked forward and hauled back. To me the girls bad temper, while disgraceful, is the secondary issue. That horse did not stumble in the ordinary way, it went down.

Blaming the trainer is utterly ridiculous and getting way too PC. Nobody has total control of another person EVER, including your own kids, let alone a student who is not even under your direct supervision during a lesson but out on her own in the show ring. How can the girls spat of bad temper be the trainers fault. Lets keep some perspective. I don't understand why people want to give their freedom away, control by this person or that authority.

I think there was something wrong with the horse. If the owner/ rider was unaware of a problem, she thought the horse was misbehaving. One usually feels obliged to finish an event so one continues if there appears to be nothing wrong, we don't automatically assume something dreadful is going on, so a vet check probably would not cross the girls mind at that point. Possibly if a steward had seen, they may have questioned it, but again, they are not expecting that sort of trouble either. And the episode of bad temper rather distracted from what was going on with the horse.

So we harp on about this incident, setting it as an example of what is unacceptable, but the reality is that every day all over the world this sort of behaviour goes on, and you want witch-hunt one girl for it? Ideal, obviously not but there are horses that have to do daily work with not enough feed, bad if any hoof care, obscene bits that are badly used. . . so, perspective. 'Punishment' does not have to be hung, drawn and quartered. A steward saying to a person, "thats not acceptable, if it happens again you are finished for the day" is perfectly ok.

The word 'abuse' is bandied around willy nilly these days and is rather losing its impact. How about we keep it for what it really means. I was on jury service a few years ago for an 'abuse' case. It was a waste of taxpayer money. Two neighbours who had been lovers and partners in a small business that folded, squabbling over an issue and one touches the other, who files for 'abuse'. THAT makes me sick.

I would like to think the incident with the girl we have been speaking of was a one-off incident. Chances are it happens at home sometimes. So if the FEI spoke to the girl I like to think they have recommended something constructive. We will never know, and nor should we. Here is a shocking thought to some of you younger people - everything is NOT our business, just because we have social media. And just because it is not 'announced' doesn't mean it didn't happen (I am talking about consequences here)

I have not read the fact sheet. I just can't handle that right now.

:cowboy:

I agree with something being wrong with the horse, it was very odd the way he looked to be falling asleep then suddenly went down.

Trainer's are responsible for the methods they teach their students, but obviously not responsible for the student's tantrums. The girl either taught herself that technique, was taught the technique by another mentor, OR it was a one-off incident. No way of knowing without observing more footage of the girl on this horse or working with her on a face-to-face basis. If the trainer taught her to use such a method, then yes the blame is also on the trainer.

I'm assuming the rest of your post was not directed at me, as I am in complete agreement with it. I said myself 'witch-hunting' this girl is ridiculous, as well as saying that she deserved to be hurt or banned from showing. A disqualification certainly would not have been over the top. I don't classify this as outright abuse either-bad horsemanship, yes.

I agree with your last paragraph as well. I don't even have FB, HF is the closest thing I have to social media.

The fact sheet is stomach-turning... :sad:

 

[paintedpastures]

I think that beyond the obvious, there is also a certain situational aspect.

I will give a horse who I think deserves it a whopping. However many smacks I think I need to get my point across. I always try to get it done with less, but if more is needed I will step up and go to war. I don't think this behavior is out of "temper" or cruelty, I think it's born out of understanding horse hierarchy and knowing that when a horse is charging at me, mouth open and ears pinned, I'd rather get it once with a stock whip and let it learn its lesson than hope precious pony over there backs off and doesn't kick my head in.

To a certain degree I also think horses respond differently to pressure. I have Selena, who is literally the deadest horse to ever live. Has been since she was born. Nothing happened to her to make her that way, except letting her get too gentle as a colt. Now she's a terrorist. You could kick, whip, kiss, cluck, beat the snot out of her and she might not even bat an ear for you. I spent a long time of sweating and cursing to get her to be responsive to me, and still when it gets in the heat of the moment I swear to god she doesn't even feel my whip. In moments like those, I'll give one or two good hard whacks to get her attention. Then she will go off the light cue again. Is that considered abuse? I don't think so.

There's a lot of factors to consider....

agree lots of facts to consider when it comes to the personality/disposition of the horse. some horses you can't raise your voice or even over cue they have a meltdown,others you have to be much more forceful to have them pay attention & respect you. Problem is you have to take into consideration horses demeanor when training/riding they all don't respond to same training the same:wink: that's wear a good rider/trainer will pick up on what the horse is telling them & structure the training to better fit individual.

 

[ShirtHotTeez]

I agree with something being wrong with the horse, it was very odd the way he looked to be falling asleep then suddenly went down.

Trainer's are responsible for the methods they teach their students, but obviously not responsible for the student's tantrums. The girl either taught herself that technique, was taught the technique by another mentor, OR it was a one-off incident. No way of knowing without observing more footage of the girl on this horse or working with her on a face-to-face basis. If the trainer taught her to use such a method, then yes the blame is also on the trainer.

I'm assuming the rest of your post was not directed at me, as I am in complete agreement with it. I said myself 'witch-hunting' this girl is ridiculous, as well as saying that she deserved to be hurt or banned from showing. A disqualification certainly would not have been over the top. I don't classify this as outright abuse either-bad horsemanship, yes.

I agree with your last paragraph as well. I don't even have FB, HF is the closest thing I have to social media.

The fact sheet is stomach-turning... :sad:

Correct, it was not aimed at you. Trying to keep it general :L

IMO the girl was not 'taught' this 'technique'. She lost the plot. Straight out temper. Disqualified from what? the event? Her chance of winning that event hit rock bottom. The show? Maybe, but I don't think so. Lets try and build people up, not kick them when they are down. A talking to from 'authority' (in this case FEI) with a verbal warning would clip most peoples wings. Most people don't feel too proud when they have lost control.

:gallop:

 

[Smilie]

The main point here is being missed
This occurred at a show venue, which in turn is run under rules
Thus, all the various abuse that occurs in backyards, out on open trails, or anywhere that person is not riding under rules, does not apply to this incident

JUdges are expected to judge, not as to their own personal opinion, but according to their interpretation of the rules
Likewise, the show committee, is bound to follow rules, as per to what is considered abuse, under the guideline of their association, and not according to their own opinion

Thus, since there is a video, if the person who took that video, instead of posting it on the internet, should have stood behind their conviction, and put in a formal protest to the show committee.
That video could then have been reviewed, without all the emotion it has generated, and an informed opinion, based on the rules that show is run under, could have been made
If the protest was upheld, then disciplinary action could have been taken
On the other hand, if it was decided that the video did not show abuse, as per rules interpretation, then the person who submitted the protest and video, would have forfeited the fee for making a protest
It is really no different, if you call the SPCA for a suspected abuse, as they will officially decide if action should be taken, and that your concern was merited

 

[Smilie]

agree lots of facts to consider when it comes to the personality/disposition of the horse. some horses you can't raise your voice or even over cue they have a meltdown,others you have to be much more forceful to have them pay attention & respect you. Problem is you have to take into consideration horses demeanor when training/riding they all don't respond to same training the same:wink: that's wear a good rider/trainer will pick up on what the horse is telling them & structure the training to better fit individual.

All of this is a mote point, as we are not talking of something happening at a training facility, but at avenue which is run under rules, and not just the actual performance, but as to what is considered general horse handling acceptance at that venue

 

[JCnGrace]

At the end of the day if the horse is happy, healthy and well fed then I don't consider a training or correction style abuse even if I don't agree with the method.

 

[Horsef]

Being a novice, I've held onto the reins a few times just like Penelope did. It happened for a different reason, namely horse lurching forward and me losing balance - instinctively a just grabbed. I'm sure you've all seen begginers do it. I wouldn't classify it as abuse - even if just to make myself feel better.

My point is, if the end result for the horse is the same, ie. getting hit in the mouth, why would the reason behind it determine whether it's abuse or not?
I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

[Foxhunter]

Generally horses are pretty forgiving. Thank heaven for that!

We all make mistakes, we should learn from those mistakes.

Severity of corrections should be determined by the sin and never administered in temper.

Say a horse kicked out at me I would get after it, lots of growling, arm waving and a whack with whatever was to hand. Generally speaking I have not actuall hurt the horse but I sure as heck have scared the wits out of him! Once that punishment is over I carry on as if nothing had happened. It is never any good holding resentment.

More than once I have seen very thin horses, owners are novices, there is evidence of plenty of hay in the field. With the right approach to the owners you can get to find out what is wrong, generally it would be very sharp teeth, get those done and all is well. What I call cruelty through ignorance.

There is also what I would class as cruelty through selfishness. When a horse is either old or sick and the owners keep it going because they cannot bear the thought of having it euthanised.

If I see an old horse struggling to get up several times then I will have it put down, I would rather it went on than find it exhausted after struggling for several hours to get up without anyone knowing.

If a horse is sick and I know it wants to go on then I will fight alongside it to give it a chance. When you have been around them for a leg time then you know when they have given up the life fight and you need to let them go.

 

[jaydee]

To go back to the thread that sparked this one - the opinion that's being shared by many people on other sites that are talking about that incident is that if someone is capable of loosing their temper and lashing out so aggressively and so readily in a public place over something as simple a horse stumbling (because she was wasn't riding it properly) what is she like when no one is looking?
Abuse comes in many forms - from neglect through to sheer brutality and its up to the caring public to report these things ASAP if anything is to be done to stop it
The FEI certainly needs to review its policy on reviewing things and it needs to review the way its rules are written so incidents like the one with Bertram Allen who was disqualified because he accidentally caught his horse with a spur when his leg went back too far at some point on the course - the video was evidence that he'd never used the spurs excessively at any point was very clear
A similar thing happened to UK dressage rider Anna Ross Davies who has videos of her horse's test that clearly show no sign of any blood in around her horses mouth but when the horse was checked after the test - the 'bit check' some blood was seen which could easily have come from the horse biting its tongue when they were opening its mouth but she was still disqualified
And yet a horse that's got blood dripping from its mouth in an FEI endurance competition was not disqualified
These photos are from her public complaint about the way things are being handled, her own horse's mouth as it came out of the ring, Bertram's horse and the endurance horse

 

[Reiningcatsanddogs]

I'm going to say this and then go hide under a sturdy object. JMO.

I don't know, and this is where personal perception plays a big role, blood after a ride for any reason tells me that perhaps a change needs to be made in either the gear used or the way the horse is being ridden?

I don't know that I'd qualify a bitten tongue or a cut from a bit as "abuse" necessarily, but most certainly, a situation where some changes should be at least seriously contemplated by the rider.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, but if it is happening enough that it is almost considered commonplace/acceptable in a discipline, then it might be time to stop and think about making some changes? Just my two cents and certainly debatable.

 

[jaydee]

Being a novice, I've held onto the reins a few times just like Penelope did. It happened for a different reason, namely horse lurching forward and me losing balance - instinctively a just grabbed. I'm sure you've all seen begginers do it. I wouldn't classify it as abuse - even if just to make myself feel better.

My point is, if the end result for the horse is the same, ie. getting hit in the mouth, why would the reason behind it determine whether it's abuse or not?
I'm not sure what the answer is.

Strictly speaking that should be a simple decision to make and it would be if there was a panel of people who were able to use their brains and actually 'think' about the situation instead of behaving like robots with a tick box mentality
I would be able to forgive Penelope if she had just hung on to the reins as she lost her balance as the horse lurched forwards - that's something that's happened to me enough times when I've had a horse take off way too soon at a fence, especially out hunting and you'll see it happen to many of the best eventing riders so its not something reserved for beginners
What I don't forgive in her case is the fact that she continued to spur the horse on and then yank it back in temper after the stumbling and again 3 or 4 times in a separate occasion, also recorded that had nothing at all to do with her being 'left behind' the horse's action
A group of people on a panel should have no trouble at all deciding if something was deliberately done and it equated to excessive force, done in a temper or just an unfortunate accident
The blood rule in competition should apply only if the rider was actually using excessive force and seen to be doing so though obviously if the welfare of the horse was in question it would have to be withdrawn whatever happened

 

[ShirtHotTeez]

God forbid that we demand regulations to stop us being human.

People lose their temper? How dare they!

No it is not behaviour to encourage, but it happens. And even without all the fuss over it I bet this girl feels terrible for not handling the situation better.

Are those of you that are calling for her blood so perfect? Are your kids, your family so perfect? Lets get some perspective because people are not robots, perfect little clones of each other that never screw up.

 

[jaydee]

God forbid that we demand regulations to stop us being human.

People lose their temper? How dare they!

No it is not behaviour to encourage, but it happens. And even without all the fuss over it I bet this girl feels terrible for not handling the situation better.

Are those of you that are calling for her blood so perfect? Are your kids, your family so perfect? Lets get some perspective because people are not robots, perfect little clones of each other that never screw up.

I was taught from a very early age that losing your temper with a horse was counter productive - you don't ride effectively or deal with a situation effectively when you aren't in control of your own mind.
If you get to that point with a horse then its time to walk away and calm down
If my parents or grandparents or any of the people who I've had instruct me over the years had seen me behave like that on my own yard I would have been grounded for a long time and the same would have applied to my children or anyone I was training
She is NOT a girl - she's 35 years old and a mother - and has years of experience at top level so should be more than capable of handling a situation when a horse stumbles without having a meltdown - and if she'd been riding it correctly and not let it do on the forehand it wouldn't have stumbled in the first place - another rule in my book is to never blame a horse for your own failings
Correcting a horse firmly and quickly because its deliberately misbehaving and/or dangerous is one thing but lashing out at a horse because things aren't going your way, it has an accident or doesn't understand what you want it to do is another

 

[Smilie]

Stupid computer froze up, so will try again, quickly, before going on a trail ride.

Either you enforce no sportsmanship conduct, drug abuse, as per rules of any organization, or you leave it wide open, and anything goes
Yes, I guess anyone can , given the right circumstances, have a temper tantrum, but if they occur at a show venue, then rules of unsportsmanship conduct have to be en forced, or those rules become meaningless
Ditto for drug rules. If a certain venue has drug rules, and your horse tests positive, then those drug rules have to be enforced.
No one is going to test your horse at home, to see if he is being ridden with chemical help, but if that venues has rules,, then you are liable for the consequences, if your horse tests positive.
Unsportsmanship conduct, at avenue, also has to be enforced, or just leave that field wide open, with anything goes!

 

[Golden Horse]

Ditto for drug rules. If a certain venue has drug rules, and your horse tests positive, then those drug rules have to be enforced.
No one is going to test your horse at home, to see if he is being ridden with chemical help, but if that venues has rules,, then you are liable for the consequences, if your horse tests positive.

Now there is a interesting one, use of drugs....if you are competing then no drugs allowed, quite rightly, we don't want cheaters, but try and draw a line for abuse with drugs, a small dose of bute to keep the getting older arthritic guy comfortable for some light trail riding, injecting hocks for a reiner, etc etc.....

 

[Smilie]

Now there is a interesting one, use of drugs....if you are competing then no drugs allowed, quite rightly, we don't want cheaters, but try and draw a line for abuse with drugs, a small dose of bute to keep the getting older arthritic guy comfortable for some light trail riding, injecting hocks for a reiner, etc etc.....

No one is checking on drugs used to keep an old arthritic horse going, around home, and various competitions have different drug rules, from absolutely zero drugs, to literally wide open, and degrees in between. You ride according tot he drug rules under which you show

 

[ShirtHotTeez]

Stupid computer froze up, so will try again, quickly, before going on a trail ride.

Either you enforce no sportsmanship conduct, drug abuse, as per rules of any organization, or you leave it wide open, and anything goes
Yes, I guess anyone can , given the right circumstances, have a temper tantrum, but if they occur at a show venue, then rules of unsportsmanship conduct have to be en forced, or those rules become meaningless
Ditto for drug rules. If a certain venue has drug rules, and your horse tests positive, then those drug rules have to be enforced.
No one is going to test your horse at home, to see if he is being ridden with chemical help, but if that venues has rules,, then you are liable for the consequences, if your horse tests positive.
Unsportsmanship conduct, at avenue, also has to be enforced, or just leave that field wide open, with anything goes!

Yes, I agree. A fair unbiased application of the rules is called for, but not a witch-hunt, ban for life, animal abuse charges, etc. Dealt with at the time and not on and ever after.

I was taught from a very early age that losing your temper with a horse was counter productive - you don't ride effectively or deal with a situation effectively when you aren't in control of your own mind.
If you get to that point with a horse then its time to walk away and calm down
If my parents or grandparents or any of the people who I've had instruct me over the years had seen me behave like that on my own yard I would have been grounded for a long time and the same would have applied to my children or anyone I was training
She is NOT a girl - she's 35 years old and a mother - and has years of experience at top level so should be more than capable of handling a situation when a horse stumbles without having a meltdown - and if she'd been riding it correctly and not let it do on the forehand it wouldn't have stumbled in the first place - another rule in my book is to never blame a horse for your own failings
Correcting a horse firmly and quickly because its deliberately misbehaving and/or dangerous is one thing but lashing out at a horse because things aren't going your way, it has an accident or doesn't understand what you want it to do is another

There are a lot of things in life that shouldn't happen. But they do. There is no 'magic age' where everybody is suddenly a rational adult. Just look at the world around you. In a perfect world there would be.

:gallop:

 

[KLJcowgirl]

I think the word "abuse" is way over used any more, and is cried all to often. I've only read the first two pages and I certainly agree with everything that has been said.

One thing we need to be conscious of is crying abuse when there is none or before we know what was happening.

I am very careful about where I call abuse, as I was called out once at a 4-H show. It was the state show and I had just run my Scurry pattern and was leaving the arena when a woman comes screaming down the arena yelling at people to stop me before I left. She continued to berate me in front of EVERYBODY, telling me that my spurs were abusive and borderline illegal. I wear a spur with a large rowl with very rounded, blunt points. She demanded that I take them off or else I would not be allowed run the rest of my events that day.

I was humiliated. I got off and just cried. I couldn't believe what had just happened. Word got around, and I was lucky enough to have about twenty people there who knew me and knew I was absolutely NOT abusive with my spurs and others who didn't know me but watched my run, come unglued about this and furiously protected me. I was able to leave on my spurs and finish my events, as the only rule about spurs is excessive use of them was not allowed. But still, like others have said, abuse is subjective, and I guess she though I was.

We can't take a snipet of time and judge it accordingly, we simply do NOT know what was going on. And with the internet, it is all to easy to do that. I know how humiliating it is.

We can not dismiss real cases of abuse, which in my mind is UNWARRANTED whipping, hitting, beating, yanking, spurring, kicking and so on. Neglecting basic care (mainly food and water) is unacceptable.

I have more I want to say, but I have no idea how to word it. I think the general public also needs more education about horses, their nature, and how their handled, but that's just not going to happen any time soon. We need to try to teach as much as possible, but many any more seem very unwilling to listen...

 

[JRoyalimage]

I think it depends on the horse (that sounds horrible). My horse is very sensitive to leg pressure, and verbal cues so me using a whip or hitting her is unnecessary so in that case I would call it abuse if someone hit her or anything. Because it's just not needed.
There is another horse that I work with that is just a real jerk. He's pushy, disrespectful, he throws his weight around like its nothing. So I hit him HARD when he tries to walk through me. To some it may look bad, but it's nothing worse than what another horse would do if he got in their space without consent.
So I think it's all about the horse.

 

[Golden Horse]

No one is checking on drugs used to keep an old arthritic horse going, around home, and various competitions have different drug rules, from absolutely zero drugs, to literally wide open, and degrees in between. You ride according tot he drug rules under which you show

But that does not answer the question of what is abusive use of drugs.