The Horse Forum banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I bought my first horse a year ago this December, 100% fully aware that he was a quarter horse but not up to date on registry, so technically sold to me as “grade”.
His story is that he was bred out of two world champion western pleasure horses. The original breeder’s intent (we’ll call him Joe for the sake of discussion) was to make a show horse out of him. Turned out, my horse was not meant or built to be a pleasure pony. Joe took him to a trainer to get started for western pleasure but soon realized he wasn’t going to be what he was bred to be. So, Joe left him at the trainer and stopped paying for his training, board, anything. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with my horse since he didn’t live up to his breeding expectations. Due to the trainer’s policy, after 60 days of no payment, the horse is automatically owned by them. My coach bought my horse off of this trainer, who happened to be her good friend. My coach wrote letters, called, everything to get Joe to sign over the AQHA papers to my coach, but he never answered anything at all. I then bought my horse off of my coach. My horse is still registered under Joe.
So, my questions are, has anybody ever heard of any situations similar to this happening in your area? To those with AQHA knowledge, is it virtually impossible to get my horse registered under my name? Keep in mind I have already accepted the fact my chances of getting him registered are slim to none, and I am A-OK with that! I don’t need him registered for anything unless I wanted to show him in an AQHA show. Just would be nice to have my name on his papers, so if there is a chance I’d like to be aware of it :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,164 Posts
I bought my first horse a year ago this December, 100% fully aware that he was a quarter horse but not up to date on registry, so technically sold to me as “grade”.
His story is that he was bred out of two world champion western pleasure horses. The original breeder’s intent (we’ll call him Joe for the sake of discussion) was to make a show horse out of him. Turned out, my horse was not meant or built to be a pleasure pony. Joe took him to a trainer to get started for western pleasure but soon realized he wasn’t going to be what he was bred to be. So, Joe left him at the trainer and stopped paying for his training, board, anything. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with my horse since he didn’t live up to his breeding expectations. Due to the trainer’s policy, after 60 days of no payment, the horse is automatically owned by them. My coach bought my horse off of this trainer, who happened to be her good friend. My coach wrote letters, called, everything to get Joe to sign over the AQHA papers to my coach, but he never answered anything at all. I then bought my horse off of my coach. My horse is still registered under Joe.
So, my questions are, has anybody ever heard of any situations similar to this happening in your area? To those with AQHA knowledge, is it virtually impossible to get my horse registered under my name? Keep in mind I have already accepted the fact my chances of getting him registered are slim to none, and I am A-OK with that! I don’t need him registered for anything unless I wanted to show him in an AQHA show. Just would be nice to have my name on his papers, so if there is a chance I’d like to be aware of it :)
I'm not sure if AQHA has a "hardship" procedure or not. I would go to the coach you bought the horse from and ask for a bill of sale from them to you, a bill of sale from the trainer to the coach and a judge's award to the trainer to trace the ownership back to the point where the trainer took the horse for back board.

From what you write, I suspect that the trainer short cutted any system the state has for "lien law" to apply. In the states I've lived in you have to let the owner become delinquent, send them bills each month and document you've done so, then send a registered, return receipt letter to the owner demanding payment within a certain time frame (say 15 days), let the time pass, follow up with another registered, return receipt letter stating that the time had passed and if payment in full wasn't received within so many more days (say 15 again) then you'd file in either small claims or civil court, depending on how much was owed. Then you had to file, have the person served (usually did that through the marshal's office) and then on the date, you went to court taking all documentation with you showing that you'd attempted to collect the debt. Then depending on the state, the judge would either award you ownership or order the horse sold at public auction. Before anyone gets upset, that could be an auction held at your facility that the public could come to, not necessarily one of the low end sales. If the judge awarded you ownership, you got documents from the court stating that you now owned the animal and after that it was just a matter of doing the appropriate bill of sale if you sold the horse. It would also show the registry that you had legal ownership of the horse and they'd go ahead and register the horse in your name (for a fee). Without the appropriate paperwork documenting the sale of the horse through each and every person who bought him before you, you could be totally out of luck.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,257 Posts
My experience was that if the original owner didn't transfer and there were multiple between owners that couldn't because the original wouldn't unless something like above happened then no. To protect the owner on file the registry will not just transfer a horse even on a DNA match. It took me years to straighten out a situation like this on a horse I bought. I was fortunate to know the breeder who put pressure on the owner to transfer directly to me. That satisfied the registry. It wouldn't have mattered either way in the end. Registered or not as I'd have just never bred her had I not been able to get the transfer done. I also had her papers in hand from the person that sold her to me plus a bill of sale from that owner. For practical purposes I "bought" her from the original owner for $1.00.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,661 Posts
I don't mean this to be harsh or rude but just honest...

You bought a grade horse, knowing of supposed parentage or not...the horse is grade, period.
If that horse was of world-champion parentage and was a flop you will never get the papers or registered animal.
Having a grade horse puts no bad offspring seen from this cross of breeding if no papers are had.
That protects the stallion/mares worth as a breeding prospect...
You bought a grade horse.. period.

There are hundreds of get from incredible breedings that are not registered or are but will never be sold with papers because they did not meet the expectations of the breeding and owners.
You can not force someone to give you or a organization to give you...what you want.
You bought a horse on hearsay and appearance but no defining proof from anyone...you bought grade.

Ride the horse, enjoy the horse and find a place where you accept the horse as he is for what he is.
You say you have done that and that is fantastic...
Papers, to me you will not get them and will meet a huge roadblock trying to get them.
If the animal was not sold with papers, then he is grade and you are not suddenly going to have papers arrive and "worth" of the animal going forth increase because of a bloodline.
If you bought to do breed showing, then you knew better.
Find shows of open entries allowed and showcase the horse to the best of both your ability if you do shows...
If no shows, or breed activities...the saying you don't ride papers fits here. sorry.

Please do not be offended by my words... if you want/wanted to do breed shows then you needed to purchase a horse with papers and transfers done in hand at change of ownership with payment made. :|

:runninghorse2:...
jmo...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
I had two horses that I had issues with registration with AQHA. The first one I had papers for a n hand, but the person who sold him to me was not the last owner on the papers. The missing owner was from Florida, and despite writing to her and requesting information I never heard back. It was a long process and eventually AQHA figures I jumped through enough hoops and put my name on there without the last mentioned owners signature. All in all if memory serves me right from first inquiry to actual papers it took between 6-12 months.

The second horse, was awarded to me by the court (long storey short, previous owner gave him to me in lieu of missing board for 1.5yrs, then About 6m after that, she said she wanted him back, when I said no, she tried to steal him, and when she was unsuccessful, Filed a police report that I stole him from her, when that didn’t fly, she sued me.) after a yearLong process, the court said she’s full of it. A valid bill of sale was proven and she was told to go away. She’s still under no trespass to this day. She was supposed to surrender the registration papers to me and some money for wasting time. I could have fought for the papers if I really wanted them. The only reason for papers is breeding or showing really. He was 21 yrs old at the time and a gelding. So I left it be. The money she owed she paid me in loonies. Said horse is 27yo now.
If you don’t have any papers on your horse, chance are you won’t get any. You don’t need them to prove ownership. You need a bill of sale for that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,153 Posts
A friend of mine acquired a horse that was in the exact same position as your horse. Unless the owner on file will sign the papers, the AQHA can do nothing. My friend was even willing to pay the owner on file to sign the transfer papers. He had a grudge going with the person that she bought the horse from, the trainer/BO and didn't even care if she was offering him close to $1,000 to sign the papers, he would not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,824 Posts
I had to trace back one horses papers to the last registered owner, and she gladly sent me a signed transfer.He had multiple owners prior to me but no one transferred his papers as he was gelded. I have a paint , I have the papers in had, no signed transfer. After searching the web, I found an obit for the past owner. I did not pursue the hardship clause with APHA, as you have to pay for the time they spend researching and the horse is in his 20's.

Anyone can sell a horse stating it has this blood line etc etc. Years ago I sold a quarter x pony to a couple saying they were going to cart train her. A few weeks later, a girl contacted me wanting the papers as the couple resold the little horse as registered but that I with held the papers.

If you buy a grade , you buy a grade. Nothing wrong with grade horses. If you are doing jumping etc you do not need to have a papered horse. The only reason you would need papers is in a breed specific show.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
Call the AQHA headquarters and explain the situation to them. If there is any way to register him, they will be happy to tell you what to do and take your money. If not, they will tell you that as well of course. Whatever the rules are on specific shows that require AQHA registration they can also point you straight to that information.

Have to say, this has amateur backyard show horse breeder wannabe shenanigans written all over it. The way I read this is a horse out of two world champions (many horses are if you go back far enough), that a trainer couldn't make into a competitive show horse (have they ever done that?), trainer ends up owning the horse (probably way more to this part) and their friend who happens to be your coach now passed it off to you (possibly so they can keep your $$$ coming in).

Understand that horse training in anything competitive where only the best make the finals is a washout type of training. A lot of people can train a horse in any discipline for the lower levels of competition. As you start going higher in the divisions towards world titles or national level the number of people who can do that with a barn full of great prospects goes down dramatically. Most of the horses in a program like this aren't going to make the cut, but the trainers usually don't tell the owner that until very late in the game when it is time to haul and show only the best of the best for finals. Trainers can't afford to send the B and below horses home and only keep he B+ and above, there is not enough monthly income from that. So the B horses and ones that never had any chance at all are what pays the bills.

People that don't have piles of money to burn and write off often get upset when they find out their horse they put all that training money into never had a chance and was "cash flow" for the trainer. Likewise when an owner is no longer star struck over the local guru and realizes they poured money into a trainer's program that has unimpressive training and showing ability when they learn more about the sport and know what they are looking at. Experienced people who can afford it and know what they are looking at won't keep a B horse in training, or if the horse is not being trained to their potential will yank them in a heartbeat and put them with a better trainer.

I could go on, but think that will help open your eyes a little to how it really works and what nobody in the business of competing with other people's horses and money will tell you. I'd watch your back with these people, if there is nothing there great but if your gut says something doesn't sound right it probably isn't. Your money, time and horse, you are the boss. Don't forget that and good people in the industry will remember it too.

What you have is an equivalent to "Cutters who don't make the cut". Those types of horses are often really great for general riding, enjoying and competing on at the non-pro and novice level. You can have a lot of fun on a horse like that and remember that this is supposed to be fun. Most things with horses like showing in a discipline/event take years to learn to do really well, so if that is this horse's job is to be the one you learn it on that is a worthy job for a horse. Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
@DreamCatcherarabians yes she did. She paid me $410 in $1 coins. She insisted that we meet at the police station so I don’t ‘scam’ her lol. The cop walking by asked what’s going on and when he seen what she was doing he said what a waste of time, scoffed and walked away. She brought that in a piggy 🐷 bank
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top