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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there such a thing as black bay? I've heard and seen it mentioned but I can't seem to find anything on it. My new gelding is supposedly black bay, in his winter coat he is pitch black (except for some sunbleached hair and his white markings) so he's definitely not brown. But in the summer he starts looking like a bay, I'm thinking maybe that's why they called him black bay? I was thinking it could just be sun bleaching. He is the one in my avatar.
 

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It's hard to see exactly clearly but he looks black. I'm thinking he sun bleaches. Can u post better pics?
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Here's a bigger version of the avatar picture

He's new (I've had him less than two weeks) so I don't have many pictures yet. The only other two I have are even worse than this one as far as judging color. I will get some pictures tomorrow while I'm at the barn.
 

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Yeah, he is " Schwarz braun", black bay. A tad darker than a dark bay. Normally around the nose, flanks and inside of hind legs he should be lighter.
I had a really dark bay,, with the mealy nose and flanks in winter, in summer it was more towards red there, rest was very dappled super dark bay, almost black. If that makes sense lol
 

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I've seen the term "black bay" before and perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but a horse cannot be both black and bay. If one of the agouti genes are not present then the horse is black; if any of the agouti genes are present it is some variation of bay. Perhaps he's a very dark seal bay (aka seal brown or brown) horse. Or maybe he's a black horse that fades dramatically in the summer.
 

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I've seen the term "black bay" before and perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but a horse cannot be both black and bay. If one of the agouti genes are not present then the horse is black; if any of the agouti genes are present it is some variation of bay. Perhaps he's a very dark seal bay (aka seal brown or brown) horse. Or maybe he's a black horse that fades dramatically in the summer.
I was more thinking in German terms, since the horse is Oldenburg lol. We don't have the term brown or seal brown in horse colors. The only differences in bays," braun", are braun( bay), dunkelbraun( dark bay) and schwarzbraun( black bay). Maybe the English term is just the literal translation from German for a German breed. Just a wild guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So he's super dark bay? I have heard of schwarz braun! My TB gelding is brown, but this one doesn't seem to have those orangey points the browns get. I know most "bay" horses are actually brown since my other gelding is brown. I'm heading out to the barn soon so I will have better pictures!
 

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I was more thinking in German terms, since the horse is Oldenburg lol. We don't have the term brown or seal brown in horse colors. The only differences in bays," braun", are braun( bay), dunkelbraun( dark bay) and schwarzbraun( black bay). Maybe the English term is just the literal translation from German for a German breed. Just a wild guess.
Registries often have their own definitions that aren't based on genetics. There's a difference between "classic" bay (A) and seal bay/seal brown/brown (At) that can be seen in DNA. There's also wild bay (A+), but there's no test for that at the moment.

Just like there are different shades of chestnut (everything from bright coppery red to nearly black liver) there are different shades of classic bay and seal bay. So there is a such thing as dark classic bay that is genetically distinct from seal bay. And you can have two seal bays that are wildly different visually but are (based on our current understanding of color genetics) the same color.

But from the one picture, I'd guess OP's horse to be a fading black. What the registry calls it... well that's another story :)

ETA- I've seen "black bay" used for Andalusian stud ads, so it's definitely not just a German breed thing :)
 
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Registries often have their own definitions that aren't based on genetics. There's a difference between "classic" bay (A) and seal bay/seal brown/brown (At) that can be seen in DNA. There's also wild bay (A+), but there's no test for that at the moment.

Just like there are different shades of chestnut (everything from bright coppery red to nearly black liver) there are different shades of classic bay and seal bay. So there is a such thing as dark classic bay that is genetically distinct from seal bay. And you can have two seal bays that are wildly different visually but are (based on our current understanding of color genetics) the same color.

But from the one picture, I'd guess OP's horse to be a fading black. What the registry calls it... well that's another story :)

ETA- I've seen "black bay" used for Andalusian stud ads, so it's definitely not just a German breed thing :)
European!!! :)
Don't recall black bay in Italian, but they do have a "baio scuro"...dark bay. I think it's a visual description, not scientific;-)
 

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For example the chestnuts
Fuchs = chestnut, red
Dunkelfuchs =dark chestnut
Kohlfuchs or Brandfuchs=coal-or burned chestnut I.e. liver chestnut
Schweissfuchs=another liver chestnut, the color of a sweaty chestnut(sweat=Schweiss)
all pretty descriptive
 

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I would say he is "brown". But genetics really aren't my forte xD
 

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I think KigerQueen's horse is what I think of when I think "seal bay". My boy is darker and I think of him as black...because he IS black, though obv genetically brown. I call him either a seal bay or black (say to a non horse person)

imgur: the simple image sharer

It's much more noticeable here than in person. I think he was clipped at this point too, and obviously dusty. His coat, except for very small tell tale areas is pitch black.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I ended up not going to the barn but I am feeding tonight so I will have pictures later on. He doesn't have the lighter points like a brown would, I understand the difference. Maybe I should just have him tested, it's not expensive. I'm honestly leaning towards fading black...
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ETA I know for brown a tell take sign is a lighter muzzle but his is jet black
 

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I can't tell from the pic but I think fading black is quite possible (and some turn brown from it). I would be interested if you test.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
More pictures, still not the greatest, by time I finished feeding and stalls it was dark out. I may have to get even more pictures lol


And here's a headshot of my very obviously brown gelding
 
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