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735 Posts
>>>> Yeah, your trainer and I are on the same page where Paints are concerned. I've known some tough minded horses, but the Paint breed seems to excel in this area. About the toughest nuts to crack.

IMO I would not recommend QHs without equally recommending Paints--- because overall, the two breeds share ALOT if not most of the same bloodlines as well as alot if not most major traits..... In my experience I think there are about the same % of quiet sweet beginner suitable Paints as there are quiet sweet beginner suitable QHs.

There are individuals and lines in BOTH breeds that might not be the easiest horses-- but I am saying overall IMO the two breeds overlap a whole lot and probably resemble each other in type, temperament and uses more than any other 2 breeds.

That said, I am not a Paint person or a QH person particulalry-- I agree that the individual is more important than the breed unless there are breed-specific things you want to do--

Of course as always, all else being good, I recommend Appaloosas the most. :D.

735 Posts
>>>> No they don't. The QH has become specialized for several different disciplines. You will not find Paint blood in a QH bred for reining, cutting, ranch, racing, hus, dressage, halter or pleasure.

You are right that you won't find too many registered Paints in most QH pedigrees, because up until recently, AQHA wouldn't register the excessive white offspring of QH x QH so, necessarily, those horses had just APHA papers.

HOWEVER, if you take the TOP horses bred for reining, cutting, hus, halter, or WP in both AQHA and APHA and compare their bloodlines, you will more often see similar than dissimiar lines.

>>>>> Anybody breeding QH's or Paints for the serious QH or Paint markets, don't cross the breeds.

Paint World Champion, Paint Congress Champion, and Superior Halter stallion
Kids Gold Style Paint
His sire is a leading QH halter sire and his dam's pedigree is full of the same QH bloodlines you would find behind top QH halter horses.

APHA Superior Halter, 2008-2009 APHA leading Sires List.
His dam is a QH, his sire's dam is a QH, 7/8 of his gr. grandparents are QHs. The horse himself is also double registered QH.

Superior Heading, Heeling, Steer Stopping, multiple top 5s at the APHA World and a reserve World Champion--
Makin Us Watch Paint
His dam is a QH, his sire's dam is a QH, 7/8 of his great-grandparents are QHs.

APHA World Champion in Junior reining in 2007.
Spooks Gotta Gun Quarter Horse
Spooks Gotta Gun : AQHA-APHA Bay Overo Stallion
Pedigree is all QH. Horse is double registered Paint and QH.

APHA World Champion in reining.
The Big Gun Paint
Sire double registered paint and QH, dam has a QH dam. 3/4 grandparents are QH, 7/8 gr. grandparents are QH.

APHA World Champion 2 yo Hunter under saddle
Both parents QH.

APHA World Champion Ama. Western Pleasure, Multiple WP futurity winner, over 300 APHA WP points.
Shes Inviting Paint
Show Horses - Roberts Family Show Horses
Sire is a Congress-winning QH.

So there are definitely some people breeding for the serious Paint market that DO use QH close up and often-- the same lines that are winning in comparable disciplines at AQHA shows.

>>>>> And any horse with one or the other breed more than three generations back no longer counts as a 'crossbred' because there isn't enough genetic material to worry about.

APHA accepts using a QH or TB parent for a fully registered Paint, so for APHA, Paints with QH or TB blood are not considered crossbreds regardless of where in the pedigree those other breeds fall. I wasn't calling Paints with QH parentage crossbred. They are fully registered Paints according to APHA.

>>>>>If we are to believe what you're saying, then the TB and the Arab, and a whole other list of breeds are essentially the same because they came from the same bloodlines...but clearly they are breeds unto themselves.

The closing of the books for the Arabian breed pre-dated the formation of the TB, so moot point. The TB allowed crossing to Arabian into the 20th century, but their books have been closed to that option for at least 70 years now (and the cross was not being used for many years prior to its "official" removal). APHA, on the other hand, still allows crossing to QH with no limits as to amount or frequency of its use.

And I never said that I do not consider APHA and AQHA to be seperate breeds-- only that I consider them similar breeds with similar bloodlines and similar traits, overall.

>>>>> The horse in my avatar is by a roping bred Paint stallion...not one registered QH within the first 5 generations.

Link to pedigree, please? I would like to see how he is bred.

I am not saying that APHA x APHA breeding does not occur, sometimes for generations, and that certain lines have less recent QH influx-- I am saying that IMO because of their common roots and because of the continued allowance of QH blood, and the common use of it, my opinion is that the breeds, ON THE WHOLE, are more similar than they are different--

And, in keeping with this thread, in both QHs and Paints (as overall breeds) IMO there is comparable potential for finding temperaments suitable for a beginner.

735 Posts
>>>> Not any more. If there isn't a number of registered QH's in the first three generations, you're talking apples and oranges.

Actually, if the predominant ancestry farther back in the Paint's pedigree is AQHA, just breeding "Paint to Paint" for a few generations would not be enough by itself to make the resulting horse completely different than its predecessors. There would have to be conscious breeder selection away from the ancestor's type and conscious selection toward another type-- and I do not see that happeneing, overall, in the Paint breed.

>>>> Because of the need to specialize to excel in the various disciplines, the QH and Paint look nothing alike conformationally. In fact, within the QH breed itself, you will see a large variance in conformation.

As has been said by myself and others in previous posts, there are variations within these breeds, yes, but Paints and QHs which are bred to excell in the same disciplines most often DO resemble one another in type, and are usually of similar bloodlines as well.

>>>> The Paint and QH are no longer the same horse.

Again I have not said that the paint and QH are ALL, breed-wide, "the same horse"-- individual lines do exist in each breed-- but the Paint breed as a whole DOES continue to be highly influenced by AQHA breeding.

>>>> It's like saying the Lusitano and the Andalusian are the same horse., they aren't.

What you are completely missing in your comparison is that the Andalusian and the Lusitano have been seperate CLOSED BOOK breeds for many generations---for many generations the two have not and are now still not allowed to interbreed.

The American Paint Horse Association still allows AQHA breeding. It has not been discontinued or even really slowed down. There also have been and continue to be horses with full registration in both AQHA and APHA. BOTH registries still allow TB breeding.

Did you look at the photos and pedigrees of current, winning Paint horses of several types that I posted in my last reply?

Do you realize that the APHA still allows breeding to AQHA and TB?

Do you know that there are many breeders that keep both AQHA and APHA papers on any horses that are eligible for registration in both registries? So there are a notable number of Paint horses that not only have AQHA bloodlines-- they *ARE* AQHA registered themselves.

What experiences have you had with Paints and the APHA that have made you so adamant that Paints have been bred to a completely different type from QHs, and that as a breed they are a "tougher nut to crack" disposition-wise? Do you show at APHA breed shows? Do you subscribe to the Paint Horse Journal? Are you currently breeding and raising Paints that are competitive in events held by associations such as NSBA, NRHA, NCHA, and etc? If so, what part of the country/world are you in? What are the names and pedigrees of some of the Paints that you are breeding/showing/working with?
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