I don't quite understand her response??

I personally don't get the fuss about chains. I use one when needed, as some horses are just bullish. I also always use one for stallions. However, I set it up so the chain is loose unless I choose to tighten it, and so it goes back to being loose after any correction. If you know what you're doing, a chain lead is not abusive, or whatever else you choose to call it.

 

She has the chain over top of the nose, so it would basically always be tight. I always showed my half arab in a chain, so it would be under the nose, and would loosen as soon as I released pressure.

Her horse appears to be, what I call a stereotypical tall horse, a big softie. He just has that look. I understand using a chain on those horses that just don't get the message without a chain, but this horse really doesn't seem to be the case. The last time I chose to use a chain on my horse is when he decided to start bolting at me when I tried washing his face with the horse, and that was at last resort. I tried waving my arms in front of him and creating a "barrier" and having him back up quick, but he just did not get the message. I slipped a chain on, and the next time he tried running into me, I smacked is nose with it, and he automatically stopped. Haven't had a problem since. But for just walking a horse from a stall to cross ties, I just don't see a need, no matter how large the horse is

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make them learn.

You will see the same thing in many other areas with horses. Race horses and breeders will do the same. I'm not saying all but it is common. Some only do what they have to to get the job done. Nothing more because that takes time and time is money. They are more interested in results than the horse itself.
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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make them learn.

:lol: just saw this.

 

While I do have to say that I don't agree with her reasoning about not doing groundwork to potentially fix the situation I don't know her or the horse so I can't rant too much on her. I can say that I've had a few horses who I won't lead without a chain lead. The one that I kept it on because it was "stronger than me" had had ample groundwork done and nothing stuck, I always kept that chain lead on because he could and would pull me off my feet to try and get that blade of grass and no amount of correction ever stuck. Spooky horses or horses that are notorious for being unruly (and before we get to work with them) all get a chain on them.

I hate to say it but sometimes groundwork doesn't stick with some horses. I see/use a chain when I feel like there will be danger to me (and thus the horse). They ARE stronger than me and any horse that I don't trust and know haven't learned how to not hurt me are exposed to it. Don't let it get to you too much, in the grand scheme of things I'd much rather someone be ignorant or misinformed in this type of situation than in something like deciding to breed a stallion and having ZERO horse experience. :p

ETA: I'm in no way abusive and I'm like wtwg, the chain goes loose when I let off of it and is only used when needed - not as a crutch. Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

The problem is not using tools, the problem is using tools as shortcuts to training.

 

Not your horse, not your problem. I hate to say it but as riders we get so amped up about what other people are doing and how they could do it better and forget that it's really none of our business- and the only thing we're achieving making a fuss is stressing ourselves out. If you think ground work is important, do ample ground work, if somebody asks for your help or advice then explain to them how and why. If somebody hasn't asked for your help or advice, and doesn't seem to want your help or advice, let it slide. You'll feel a lot better for it :wink:.

 

Not your horse, not your problem. .

Until you're a boarder, and need to use the arena and someone else's horse is turned out on the far side. You go to put the horse away and he literally charges at you multiple times before you can get out of the arena...

If you own a horse, it is your responsibility to make it safe. Especially if you board, or are in a situation where other people will have to deal with your horse. end rant!

 

A chain over the nose doesn't mean it's always tight, I've worked at a barn where chain over the nose was required for all horses, the chain was never tight unless it needed to be tight. That said, how do you KNOW her horse didn't require a chain? You say he looked like a big softie and didn't seem the type... you certainly can't think you can KNOW these things looking at a couple pictures!? Why is it okay for some people to use chains, but this girl isn't allowed to?

 

Maybe it's just because I've watched my stepdad just pretend there wasn't a problem while leading his huge horse that would pull a lot, and have that eventually lead to that horse being uncontrollable on the lead, especially lunge, to the point he was running across the fairgrounds...with a lunge line dragging behind him..with no handler..

And maybe it's just because just this past weekend I watched someone handle an incredibly hot arab with no chain, and was completely safe while leading him. (The horse was hippity-hopping, but the situation was under control)

I just think before you do anything else, the horse should be able to be lead without the use of a chain (unless completely necessary)

 

In my experience, Arabs hop around instead of pulling forward. They just don't have that draft mentality. Really, it just depends on the horse. Generally speaking, the owner would know whether their horse
Needs a chain or not.
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Her horse appears to be, what I call a stereotypical tall horse, a big softie. He just has that look.

You can't tell by just a picture that they're a softie. My lesson horse is the sweetest thing to look at. Especially in the ring she is relaxed, eyes closing, she's extra cute with her fluffy winter coat she looks like the sweetest horse.

Now grooming and tacking her up is a different story. She'll try and bite, paw, and kick. She'll give you hell. You would never know by looking at her while she's being ridden.

You just never know.

 

Just wanted to add- there are plenty of hot horses (such as Arabs) that I know that I wouldn't use a chain on for fear of making it worse. Even the more poorly trained Arabs I know are good to lead, they may be psychotic on the end of that line but they are so sensitive/oversensitive that they will not pull. The halter is enough to make them mind, and is why some horses who are more sensitive to pressure are easier to ride in a halter than a bridle.

So obviously the above was a generalized statement, and is not breed specific, but to me "hot" is not a reason to use a chain, and sometimes a reason not to use a chain. I use a chain on a strong and pushy horse and most of the time the horses know and won't test the chain and it is loose. If it is always tight you have a training issue, the chain is for correction. I don't use a chain on a hot/hyper horse unless I feel like I have to and/or know the horse will act appropriately. So that also ties in with: in my experience it is the "big slow soft" (so to speak) horses that I use it on (pushy and NOT sensitive!), while the little hot horses it will be cruel, unnecessary and provide even more stimulation.
I am speaking about using a chain, usually over the nose, for discipline, or "day to day" use, not for training/showing or anything.

 

I don't feel the OP has an issue with the chain, I think it was more the horses owner stating that she used it because she didn't have time for groundwork.

 

I'm not sure that's what the owner meant. If it was, that's certainly a problem, though we do not know this person's situation or any background story...
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Let's look at this from a completely different perspective. You post a picture of your horse with a chain over its' nose and offer a simple explanation for the non-horsey folks. Somebody else comes along and gives you advice you didn't ask for. Maybe saying 'thats not what we do' isn't the BEST answer :lol: but it's a quick way to end the conversation. I would do it and I can see it happening, which is another reason I don't think it's something to get amped up over.

 

I think using a chain is the in-fashion thing to do. They used to be called stud chains for a reason and only stallions were shown in halter with a chain. Now you see them in every halter class.

I've never cared for them personally not even when I was breeding but that's my choice. If someone else chooses to use them that's their choice and not my business.

 

Everyone has different ways to do things & different mindsets as to how "that's just how things are done." Whether you agree with it or not, she's gonna do what she's gonna do. Now I might have said something if she felt it necessary to use extreme excessive force with the chain but simply using it? Not my place. If she doesn't want to do groundwork then she doesn't want to.

Stud chains were to be used on every horse at my trainer's barn. That was just "how things were done." A lot of her client's horses had no problem pulling you down the aisle being idiots. It seems fairly common around me that in the higher ups of stuff, that everyone uses a chain. I can also understand because in my trainer's situation she literally didn't have time to put groundwork on all her horses. She was getting paid to make them rideable, not fix their groundwork problems. Not saying she didn't work to correct them. Just that she didn't spend long hours working them through patterns etc type deal.

I use a chain on my mare when the situation requires it. Horse show, vet, etc. I've done groundwork clinics and she's respectful when we do them. In normal situations I can walk her around with just a regular leadrope, or just by her halter. I'm a short person, she's a big 16.2hh WB mare, I need some sort of control. I'm sure I get weird looks when I walk her into the show barn and she's perfectly quiet beside me & has a chain looped over her nose. It's a precaution. And no the chain isn't constantly tight when looped over their nose. I don't like running them under the chin because I personally feel like that upsets them more & entices rearing. Personal preference & experience.

 

I've had these type of conversations with a very good friend of mine. She has what I call the stereotypical horse background... Took English riding lessons and learned to do things like tack a horse, post, and jump. I follow the more more natural horsemanship route. She wants to learn it from both me and someone else I know and occasionally asks my advice, but at the same time she has a hard time of letting go of certain things she's been lead to believe. When we watch a show and she sees someone get on the right side of a horse she always says "they're getting on the wrong side of the horse!". I've said to her 'what if you're out riding alone and something happens and for whatever reason you can't get on the horse's left side and you're 10 miles from anywhere?' but it always just winds back to right side wrong side, so I just brush it off now.

In september or october i was at a fair and they were showing Hackneys under harness and Drafts in hand and as teams. The Drafts in hand classes... Oh my lord... Watched one lady walking a Percheron stallion (she had no control). He threatened her multiple times, and she had the bright idea to walk him to the fence in front of the crowd. He almost jumped on top of her. All she did to fix the issue was jerk on his chain every time he did something, and it had no effect on him.
That I can let go of... But one thing I can't let go of... There was a youth class, there was a boy no older than 8yrs old walking a 17 plus hand Percheron mare. When they lined up he let her touch noses with another mare. Usually what I see when mares touch noses with other horses is squealing and striking outward with a front foot. While these mares touched noses the boy decided to walk under her neck, in direct fire if one strikes out. All I could picture was that boy getting struck by one of those massive hooves.
It upsets me because he doesn't know better than to not do that

 

I've always used a chain shank in Saddlebred training barns. Not because the horses were not well trained, they were, but because as a more reactive breed, their "oh look squirrel" moments can become a disaster quickly. A reminder that chain is across nose usually will bring them back to earth.

The chain is looped around noseband, and is merely resting on the nose, not digging in. Pretty much the same as the rope/knot halters everyone praises for that matter.

Chain does not have any bite until you need it to. And you do not hang on it either, it is a quick sharp correction, and immediate release, and that is it.

Depending on horse and what was going on, I might have chain doubled under the halter, clipped off like normal, with chain merely dangling, or through mouth if had a nervous or mouthy horse, or over noseband with a twist around it and clipped to off side. You never go under with a Saddlebred, as they are high headed anyway, and it makes them worse.

With Thoroughbreds chain is run through mouth mostly and up to high metal square/ring on the off side.

Using a chain shank requires knowing how to use it, and why. And in the hands of an experienced handler can be used with no problem. And whether or not a horse has impeccable ground manners or not has nothing to do with if someone uses one. Best trained horses in the world are Saddlebreds, and are very used to being handled and behaving.

But if they need a reminder it is there for that purpose. Much better to have a chain shank and not need it, than to have needed it and not have it, and have horse pull free at Louisville for instance, and have to tell your trainer and the owner that their 300,000.00 dollar horse was last seen careening down the Midway.

And I've used one many many times and had to engage it, and never left one single hair out of place on the horse either. I know how to use one.

 

You never go under with a Saddlebred, as they are high headed anyway, and it makes them worse.

Even though I understand why saddlebreds need chains as I have worked with two hyper Saddlbreds for the past year, I don't think I would ever need a chain on my gelding he reacts well enough by me just barely tugging on the halter, which is surprising considering I have heard a lot about his sire being really hyper.

 

This reminds me of a very good friend and I. I'm about establishing both a connection and respect with my horses. She has what I call a stereotypical horse background. Took English riding lessons and learned to groom & saddle horses, post in the trot, and how to jump. She wants to learn methods from both I and someone else I know, but also has a hard time letting go of a lot of things she's been taught. Every time we watch a show and someone gets on the right side of a horse she says "They're getting on the wrong side!!". I used to say things like 'what if something happens and you can't get on the left side of the horse and you're all alone and 10 miles from civilization?'... To me, in case something happens you should be able to get on both sides of the horse, but that's my opinion. She listens, but eventually it always winds back to right side wrong side. We have different views and we are still learning to accept that

 

Under the nose I feel is the gentlest, for a horse that likes to go up, always over. Over is my go to. I never put it in the mouth or gum unless I have an actual issue/horse acting up where the nose just isn't doing it.

 

If you know how to use a chain lead, it's not a big deal, definitely not abusive. I thread mine in such a way that the chain is over the halter, not in direct contact with the face. I rarely use mine, but I keep one on the stall door if my mare gets buggy about some stuff, and she does. Whenever vet is dealing with her, I always have it on. I don't always need it, but if I do, it's there. When she gets afraid she wants out of the stall "now" and instead of having a big fight with a yank or whatever on the leather halter, I just touch the lead and she stops. She's not exactly hot anymore now that she's 18, and I don't do it because she's hot, but because she has been pushy in the past and I don't want anyone to get hurt. The way I use my chain isn't any more harsh than a rope halter, and I do not use rope halters because she is so thin skinned that even fleece covered flymasks and shipping halters will rub holes in her face, I don't like the stiff rope that the halters are made from.

At any rate, I first started using a chain at all when I took lessons from a T-Touch (Linda-Tellington Jones) instructor. She's crazy as they come, but always kind to the horse. She would not have taught me anything cruel.

Getting Started with TTEAM, Part 1: The Tellington TTouch

 

Only somewhat related- I'm starting to like the idea of 'chain required' especially when you're at a boarding facility with people of different experience levels handling horses- even if your horse is well behaved, would always BE well behaved. I was at the barn today and a horse went down in it's stall, full on colic, collapsed and the girl working needed to get the horse on it's feet. A 100 pound teenager against a 1200 pound horse, the only way she could get that horse up off the ground was to slip the chain under his lip and make him respond. Not ideal, but in a situation where she had no other choice and nothing else had worked, it got her where she needed to be. Not really the topic on hand, but related to a couple posts regarding chain use in general.

 

One other thing to look at there is the difference between needing to because your horse is in a life or death situation and needing to because of your horse's lack of respect for you and/or others

 

I'm always amazed at the number of people who NEED a chain lead. I think tolerance for bad ground manners diminishes as you get older. When I was a teen, I'd work with just about anything that stood still long enough for me to toss a leg over. Now? Not so much. If the horse has bad manners, I'll work a couple of days with it and if it shapes up fine. If not, it's outta here NOW. I don't use a chain on the stallion even when he's breeding. Not saying I don't HAVE stud chains and chain leads, but we don't NEED them on a regular basis. I have no problem using one if a horse is just having an off day, but to tolerate that kind of bad manners on a daily basis? Not on your life.

 

Hang around horses and horse people long enough and you'll encounter this situation over and over again. Especially the better you get the more you'll see people doing things with horses that neither work nor make sense. Want to hear a million-dollar habit though? Every time you feel this way just ask yourself "where's mine"? Where am I falling short in my horsemanship? What things am I still doing that fail to get the results I want and how can I learn from the other person's experience as well as my own?

From my point of view, using stud chains at all is a crutch and in fact, tends to create the very types of behaviors that people think that they then need the chain to correct. I know this to be true because I've used them, and then seen small, physically not-strong people effectively handle even tough horses in regular halters because they had highly developed horsemanship. So it's very easy to look at others using more crude methods and shake my head if not for asking that question "where's mine". Thank God we all still have a lot to learn!
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Ian, I totally agree with you. I prefer no chains on my place, but I'm willing to do the work it takes to get a horse to have good manners. I keep a stud chain and a lead chain for those days when somebody just gets all up in their head and forgets there's a human on the other end of the lead line (mostly 1-2 year olds that aren't real well schooled yet). I find just putting the weight on the halter frequently is enough, I don't even need to actually hook the chain up to use it. When I DO use a chain outside of the show ring, where it's required tack, then I try to keep it rigged up in the "captive" mode rather than the "active" mode. Neither one is ideal.

I won't keep a stallion around that requires a chain regularly, even to breed, so I've worked with mine to the point he understands that unless he's ON a mare, he better be a gelding or very close. He knows that his web halter is the breeding shed halter, his rope halter is his regular leading halter and his leather halter means we're going showing. In the web halter he's allowed to talk and get a little animated, in the other 2, he better not.

Any time I have a situation not go the way I intended it to go, I stop and ask myself, "What did I do?", "What didn't I do that I should have?" and "What could I have done better?" and "What do I need to practice more with the horse?". I've been working around horses most of my life and if I've learned anything at all, it's that I still have a lot to learn and there are people out there who have forgotten more than I'll ever know.

 

There is also a big difference between using one on your horse and using one on someone else's horse, where you may not be in a position to do training.

 

Dreamcatcher, Ian I do agree with you that no one should use a chain every day or skip out on basic groundwork with it but that being said I'm about 200lbs of muscle feel confident in my ability to work/read horses (though I've still got a lot to learn!) and when I think that one's stupid enough to get me or itself hurt: on the chain goes. I'll work on it to try and get it to the point of not needing it but sometimes the lesson doesn't stick or quite frankly I don't trust the horse NOT to hurt me or itself. I had a horse in training one time (had been there for about four weeks and was awful on the ground) that decided it would be a good idea to go crazy in the barn aisle, he slipped, tripped and ran backwards out the barn and the only thing that stopped him from plowing into the side of a trailer and impaling himself on the open door was a chain around his nose. Most horses where I work don't need them at all and I'm able and comfortable with using a regular halter on them, a few however I'm pretty sure are out to get me! ;-) I remember my boss (who I think is an excellent horsewoman) got in a gelding who I worked and worked and worked on ground manners. One day he pinned me in the barn aisle and tried to trample me out of malice, had it not been for the farrier showing up early and getting him off of me I'd probably be maimed or dead. Couple of days later he tried the same and got a couple of quick jerks on a chain around his nose; he never tried it again. I guess my point is that sometimes it's not human error or laziness, and no matter how you slice it my 200lbs is nothing compared to a 1000lb+ horse who decides he's not going to do anything. But to each their own.

 

I totally agree with you. In those instances the chain comes out and goes on and I will make that horse wish his mother had been barren. My point was those horses who cannot or won't take the ground work lessons, they get sent down the road quick here. I'm not into getting hurt at my age, it takes too long to heal and the pain seems to stay when the injury has gone.

Since I rarely have an outside horse come in anymore, then I can say that I don't really need a chain on MY horses. When you're at a boarding barn or in a training facility, that's a different story. The goal should be to get to the point where it's no longer necessary, not that we skip the ground work and use a chain instead of working on manners and gaining respect. I don't think a chain is always a BAD thing, I just think that we tend to jump to using a tool too quickly rather than trying to complete an education. Right in the middle of a life threatening emergency is NOT the time to stand around quibbling over semantics, you just grab the chain, sort out the problem and move on.

 

Watching a video on how to apply a chain (I don't use one, and never will, I'm just curious)... I like what it says in the video...
"Chains should not be yanked, or jerked. Most commonly horses are picked on with a chine by little annoyance after little annoyance."
"Too much use of the chain can result in serious accidents for handlers and long term training and/or physical damage for the horse. If the horse rears, stop jerking"

And my favourite thing said in this video.... If you choose to use a chain, don't expect it to make up for lack of training.

 

However, chains are required for showing in halter/showmanship no matter the age/gender in my breed association. As someone who does not use lead chains, I had to bolster my ground control and then teach my horse how to respond appropriately to the chain.

Of course, I posted a picture of her with it on and someone jumped my case, read me the riot act about how horrible it was... x.x In fact, I spent more time training my horse to put her in a chain then most people do to get them out of one... But I've seen too many people flip young horses because their horses are not educated to chain pressure and the handlers are not educated either.